Are there any pros or cons to switching a flute from a corked tenon to a threaded one or vice-versa? Or is this forbidden by laws of physics, flute-making, and/or tradition?
Thanks and best wishes.
Steve
Switching from cork to thread is easier than the other way. Flutes that were made to have threaded tenons will generally have less space between the wood of the tenon and the socket, meaning that if the tenon isn’t turned down, the cork will need to be thinner than optimum. This means that the cork is less compliant, which to me is its primary advantage over thread. I have a Cameron flute that had this done, and when I get around to it, will replace the too-thin cork with thread. Replacing cork with thread works better, but you need more thread than if the tenon had been made for thread to begin with.
FWIW, I’ve had some threaded flutes corked without any difficulties.
Some makers forbid it and I respect that. Otherwise no problems.
I think it is a non-issue. You can damage your flute with either.
In general I worry more about dropping my flute than worrying about my tenon wrap.
Hear, hear.
I’ve had originally cork on the flute, but I use thread + bee’s wax as a field remedy if it goes off - as learned off my flute teacher and supported by my flute repairer, who - being primarily a baroque/classical instruments builder - told me this technique was used for centuries (is that traditional enough?) and is still considered fully valid. Just to be on the safe side, I prefer not to go wild with the thread, and the wax does the sealing job perfectly. Re-waxing takes about 50 seconds and is required once in a blue moon (my own experience only), and you can always store a bit of wax and thread in your flute case.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying there Waterfall. Are you talking about augmenting failing cork with a bit of thread and wax, or replacing it with same? I don’t expect any problem with augmenting, as the resilience of the remaining cork should still protect the tenon from compression when moisture swells the wood. But replacing cork with thread means losing the protection the cork had provided.
You might want to get back to your repairer/builder. Thread wrapping was considered “fully valid” up to earlier this year. It has since been proven to represent a danger to the flute, and evidence of the damage in old flutes is widespread. The question now facing researchers and restorers is finding the best way to undo the damage.
Terry
Hi Terry,
I meant replacing it completely: first threading it a bit, but not applying tension - just as if you threaded the tip of your finger if you didn’t want to stop the blood from circulating. The bee’s wax will work as an adhesive anyway. Then, applying hand-warmed bee’s wax all around the tenon, and then - after connecting the parts of the flute - removing the squeezed-out excess bee’s wax with your thumbnail. Et voila.
I am fully aware of your research and of your website, which was an immense help for me in my earlier years of getting to grips with flute lore, and I have a lot of respect for you and your work; my flute repairer, being a worldly man, also knows and praises your work on flute research a lot. However, in this one respect his experience with old woodwinds is quite different from yours. He is a recognised authority on the old woodwinds restoration himself (in classical music world). I’m not an expert myself, being focused on musical practice. However, in my neck of woods, where Irish traditional instruments are much rarer than XVIII and XIX century woodwinds, most people stand at the position so neatly summed up by Julia Delaney - that this is a non-issue, and, admittably by osmosis, I share this view.
I am probably not a partner for a discussion for you on this matter, as firstly - my knowledge of the flutes is just a fraction of yours (and half of mine is on your website anyway), and secondly, the above method has been working for me fine through arid and wet climates for a number of years and, with my belief in triviality of the thread vs. cork issue and affinity for simple solutions, I find this technique ideal.
Thread wrapping was considered “fully valid” up to earlier this year. It has since been proven to represent a danger to the flute, and evidence of the damage in old flutes is widespread.
Sorry Terry, but there are plenty of esteemed builders who would disagree with this bald statement.* Stuffing an over-corked tenon, or one with too much Teflon tape, into a socket can also cause damage to a flute. The fact that some flutes have been badly affected by a poorly threaded tenon only means that repairs must be done mindfully, not that the whole technique represents, in your words, a danger to the flute.
*****Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition). It is a fallacy to try to prove something by saying it again and again. No matter how many times something is repeated, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place.
If your flute is synthetic, then I would say synthetic thread has the advantage over natural cork (never tried synthetic cork) insofar the flute can be left assembled for longer periods without worry of cork swelling, shrinkage, peeling, and tearing.
Of course you could always opt for a delrin flute with wrapless tenons.
Sorry, Julia, er, David, it’s not a bald statement, I have published the proof. And I reckon it’s now ineluctable.
Yours is the bald statement. Yours is the argumentem ad nauseum. You have asserted, and reasserted. You have published no proof.
Do feel free …
Terry
I tried synthetic cork (neoprene with cork bits in it, as used in car gaskets) in my early days and found it distinctly disappointing. Tough, but not easily compressible. But maybe it’s moved on from there? Anyone had any good experience with it?
(I know I’m probably written off as a die-in-a-ditch cork enthusiast, but actually, I hope we can move beyond bark from Quercus suber trees to something better. But what?)
Terry
I sometimes wonder if the industry standard of cork on things like clarinets is based on function, tradition, or other less immediately apparent reasons. Cork is relatively specialized in make and purpose compared to thread. On the one hand it seems easier to me to thread wrap a tenon than cork one, but this means more people could screw things up. Problems with bunching up of thread, ease of mass production, etc. Even if the two work equally well, it wouldn’t take much to cause a favored method.
I am kind of surprised that O-rings are rarely used, especially in Delrin flutes. They wouldn’t work well where the corked tenon is used as a tuning slide, but I don’t see a reason not to use them on the lower sections. I mean if wine can move away from corks…
I think maybe lack of choice. Other than cork or thread, what other choices do we have? An alien visitor might send home a humorous report. “And then, having made these tubes from tall vegetables that grow in some of the most difficult-to-reach parts of the world, they then wrap the ends of them either with the protective covering of another type of tall vegetable, or by spinning out the fibres from the protective capsule around the seed pods of a short vegetable. Then they push the ends together and blow into them. And the noise it makes!”
I am kind of surprised that O-rings are rarely used, especially in Delrin flutes. They wouldn’t work well where the corked tenon is used as a tuning slide, but I don’t see a reason not to use them on the lower sections. I mean if wine can move away from corks…
I remember seeing a few flutes by a French company (Camac?) in the late seventies or early eighties that had three O-rings on the tenons. I don’t think it proved successful. If not kept adequately greased, the O-rings could roll out of their grooves and get jammed in the narrow gap between tenon and socket. That could easily set up a situation where you could neither get it apart for greasing, nor get in there to grease it.
Terry
It’s an interesting suggestion. If the thread was loose enough to allow the tenon to swell naturally, that should get around the compression issue. (Natural movement between 20%RH and 100%RH is about 0.6mm diameter for a 19mm tube, so quite a bit of movement is required.) Leaving the thread “dry” would be no good, as the very loose thread would bunch up hopelessly. But if it were held in place by a suitable pliable goup, that might work. The goup would have to be soft enough not to exert significant force on the tenon, but firm enough to keep the loose threads from bunching up. The question would be can you find a fibre/goup combination that meets all the physical requirements over the expansion range mentioned above.
I remember the late Paul Davis threading tenons on flutes he was selling to Irish players in the 1970’s in his digs near the Portobello Rd. He waxed the thread with wax from around Gouda or Edam cheese, cut with Vaseline, melted together in a teaspoon over a spirit lamp. But he pulled the thread tight and wound evenly, so that definitely didn’t fit your suggestion.
Which reminds me:
Q. Which cheese is made backwards?
A. Edam.
Terry
I have a couple of Susato wide-bore recorders with O-ring seals. On those, it’s a disastrous design mistake. On one of them the ring worked free as Terry describes, and then the tenon snapped through one of the retaining grooves when I was trying to get it out - the grooves create weak points. I had to superglue the tenon permanently in place. I have another one the same, so I pre-emptively threw the O-rings away and replaced them with teflon tape. I emailed Kelischek and got a patronizing “problem, what problem?” reply.
I also have a Camac renaissance recorder (some kind of black wood) where O-rings have worked fine - the tenon is much stronger.
@ I.D.10-t and Terry: Rob Forbes uses O rings on his very successful delrin Prattens. His joint design is unique, and his flutes are remarkable.
I’ll 2nd Herb 
I’ve had not problems with it.
'course I’ve only had it apart a few times to run water through it…
Should have stated “they might not work as well”. Knew someone made one, but couldn’t remember who. How far can the “slide” be backed out and still have full support of the O-rings?
the Forbes has just under 1/2 an inch.
I’d certainly feel more comfortable doing O-rings in a delrin instrument than a wooden one!
In terms of the O-rings permitting tuning, I imagine this is why at least the top tenon of the Camac flute had three O-rings (can’t remember the others, they probably just had 2 rings). Even with it pulled out as far as you would need, two of them remained in the socket.
Terry