Seeking expert opinions on end-blown Irish flute design idea

Irish Flute
1

Greetings all,

I have played Irish flute for many years and would like to try a new design idea. First I would ask you all to glance, if you have not already done so, at these photos of Mr. Wesley’s end-blown cylindrical Boehm system flutes, paying particular attention to the embouchure piece:

http://endblownflute.com/photos.html

And, of course, the Giorgi flute mentioned on another thread here:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=44830&highlight=endblown


My vision, as you might readily guess, is a simple-system flute with a mouthpiece very similar to Giorgio’s or Wesley’s, including the tilt towards the player for the sake of a comfortable playing position. I am NOT, repeat NOT, interested in the quena-style notch embouchure, period, so let’s not start talking about quenas unless it’s really relevant, and yes I’ve played a bit of quena and understand its character.

At first I thought it would be a relatively simple matter to make at least a cylindrical PVC flute body in the style of Doug Tipple, Peter Kosel, etc, that would be suitable for this design; I have actually made a number of these PVC transverse flutes myself; but then I realized that the end-blown embouchure may require some different measurements:

For a start, the side-blown flute contains some distance between the embouchure and the cork, whereas the end-blown flute, of course, ends at the embouchure. Will this affect the length, hole sizes and distances and so on?

And since I’m off in Imagination Land, I might as well describe my vision of a near-ideal Irish end-blown flute.

Picture a 3 or 4 piece CONICAL bore instrument, end-blown and with a mouthpiece very similar to Giorgio’s or Wesley’s, with Pratten’s or Rudall & Rose dimensions and holes. In other words, picture your favorite top maker’s Irish flute but end-blown and with the end-blown head joints mentioned here.

Opinions please my flute-making friends! Would all measurements have to be completely recalculated?

2

Very probably.

I think you’re looking at all the right sources/examples. When I had my splurge of mucking about with conduit tube 9 or 10 years ago I actually had a go at this, but didn’t persist with it far enough to sort out the tone-hole spacing/sizing. I made two types of head. First I fitted a short piece of tube across the top of a head-joint tube, having cut concave curves in the end of that to accomodate the cross-tube and a hole in the later to match the bore I blocked both ends with corks and cut an embouchure. It worked in that it generated a tone, but I seem to recall that there were (obviously) problems with the correct locations of the corks at each side, and getting the right angle between the embouchure and the tube was tricky too. Then I checked back on what Giorgi flutes looked like and tried to make something more like those. I cut convex curves on the end of the headjoint and made a lip plate from a segment of tube that I glued over the end, and cut an embouchure in that. That worked better just at sounding, but at that point I “dried” on the whole thing and never followed through on working up an in-tune body to go with it. Oh yes, and I did a notch flute head too. I just stuck them all on finger tubes I had already made for transverse flutes before giving up on that in despair at the intonation problems (not that I didn’t anticipate such - I’d read Boehm! - but there’s nothing like finding out the hard way!).

Hah! I’ve just gone and dug them out and had goes on them. Actually, they all work tolerably for first attempts, especially given they don’t have tailor-made bodies. The cross-head one doesn’t like the oxx xxx fingering for 2nd 8ve D and is very flat on the open C# - probably getting that C# tone-hole right would fix both issues. The others have some intonation issues, but as I said, these were experimental prototypes and I never followed through - the problems are well within the surmountable range, I should think, and it is quite apparent in all three that the all-cylinder tube octave intonation problems that be-devil a transverse flute do not apply. That, of course, is one of the points in trying them! A little (well, maybe a bit more than that) time spent on sorting out correct head angles and finger-tube designs and they’d be fine. As you can see, I never finished them off tidily.

As for putting this type of head on a conoid body as you suggest - fine, I’m sure it could be done, but I’m not sure there’s much point when a cylindrical tube will be fine and have its usual tone-strength advantages, especially in the low register without the need for intonation correction with either a Boehm head or a conoid body. Would a top-end R&R or Pratten body give you the desired ITM tone quality better? Dunno. Get turning that Delrin or blackwood if you want to know. You can mess around with cheap conduit tubing far more readily!

If you really want me to and ask very nicely, I could try to organise some sound clips of my monstrosities :smiley: .

3

I might be blind, but I really don’t see the point of such a design. Irish flute players would probably not want to switch to end-blown instruments (most because they’re traditionalists), whistle players who wants to learn the flute will be fine with learning transverse grip if they have accepted to learn embouchure technique, otherwise they would stick with low-whistles. There might be a market for these things but I just don’t see it, at least not a big enough one. Especially as these instruments would be as, or maybe even more expensive to make as regular ones.

But if you think there’s a point of developing these, you shouln’t listen to me.

Good luck anyway

4

I’m inclined to agree with you, Henke - I was just having fun… and of course Giorgi never caught on. There is a limited market in the Boehm flute world for end-blown flutes for people who have injuries or disabilities making transverse flutes un-usable for them. That could presumably be true in the Trad world too, but in general I wouldn’t anticipate any demand for a high end item such as the OP posits.

5

Another take on the vertical flute idea:
http://www.drelinger.com/brochure/uprite_brochure1.htm

6

Thanks all for your informative and considered responses.

jemtheflute, your experiments look like what the doctor ordered for sure! I especially like the Giorgio-looking one, and the cut-conduit-tube lip plate looks very comfortable. When you play and hold that flute in particular, are your head and arms in a natural, comfortable position?

Tintin, I am suitably impressed by Mr. Drelinger and his work. It looks like Boehm flute headjoints are now the equivalent of violin bows – an entire specialized world. (Naturally I’d be curious to hear a Drelinger headjoint fitted to an R&R or Pratten’s!) But at $1,000 per headjoint, I’m sad to say I won’t be trying one any time soon.

But it’s certainly interesting that he’s chosen to lengthen and bend a headjoint rather than follow the Giorgio design, isn’t it? I read through a large part of his website (including the testimonials, many from actual concertizing professionals) and I won’t be surprised to see vertical Boehm flutes largely replace the older style in my lifetime. Why? Easy. They sound exactly like regular flutes and are MUCH easier to play (or they sound even better, according to many of the testimonials.) Anyway that sounds like the beginning of a whole 'nother thread!

As for how much of a market there would be for a newly-designed end-blown flute for the traditional players, picture this: An attractive, excellent sounding-and-playing end blown flute in the hands of a world-class player, who is videotaped giving a few stunning performances of airs, jigs, and reels. If such a thing went around Youtube I suspect it would generate enormous demand.

7

I doubt it. How would it be much easier to play? It’s the same fingering and everything, you just hold it like a whistle. I don’t find a low-whistle easier to hold and play than a flute appart from the embouchure. It’s just a different technique. And I can’t for the life of mine imagine how an attractive end blown flute would look like :stuck_out_tongue: I for one think that part of the charm of a flute is that it’s transverse, if it’s vertical it’s a whistle. I imagine many traditionalists will think the same. But heck, if everyone kept saying that we wouldn’t have any innovations. But, if this would be such a major invention, why isn’t it the dominant design of Boehm flutes already? It’s been around since the 19th century right?

8

It’d be fun to try such a thing, but honestly, I have a much easier time holding my flute than a low whistle. I think you’d find such a flute viewed as a novelty, even if the quality was very good.

9

Henke and Crooked, you’re probably right, the end-blown flute should have caught on in a big way by now, at least since Giorgio’s time. But I at least, and I know a few other players dearly love this idea, and I think a Giorgio flute is a lovely thing to look at, being played or otherwise! I suppose we’ll always be considered a bit bent :smiley:

10

OMG

I just looked at the Drelinger website again, and before, I was under the mistaken impression that his ‘UpRite’ vertical headjoint cost $1,000. The actual price is $4,000!!!

http://www.drelinger.com/brochure/uprite_brochure10.htm#brochureTop

gulp

11

Well, FWIW, I agree with Henke and Crookedtune - from just trying it - my hold on a transverse flute using “Rockstro” 3-point support is far more secure than on the Giorgi (no final “o”, BTW) style ones I made. Sure, that may just partly be familiarity, but with a whistle there is some support and location security provided by the lips, although of course one should not be clamping them, or one’s teeth, on the beak. The Giorgi style flutes are not so positively located and there is at least a sensation of insecurity and a tendency to slip away from position, especially when going over the break, the more so when playing an open C#. I daresay working at it one would overcome or find satisfactory ways to evade that insecurity, but it is certainly there at an experimental level.

12

Nothing that a bit of practice and a thumb support or two couldn’t overcome. The only keys I ever used on a keyed flute were the high C and very occasionally the F keys, so thumb supports make perfect sense to me.

I wouldn’t mind hearing a bit of your Giorgi style flute if you’re in the mood to record a little? Or perhaps play on your webcam and we can Skype call?

[Edit] Oops perhaps Skype isn’t a good idea, I can’t get my digital cam to work as a webcam and I thought I had a mic handy but don’t. Unless you don’t mind a sort of one-way video chat with me typing :slight_smile:

13

Well, I’m signed up with Skype and I do have a webcam - but I’ve never used it yet! Not too sure either that I know what I’m doing with it or that my antiquated computer has the capacity to run it properly. I’ll try to sort out a video clip. Interestingly, this morning I stuck my “best” finger-tube on the Giorgi head, the one I use with my low whistle: it works far better than the reject one I had left attached last time I fiddled with these. I also put a shorter G tube in the cross-headed one in place of the E tube that was in it - and that too works far better, no problem with the open C# fingering, though when I tried an F tube that was kinda between the two on that point - which suggests to me that there is an issue with bore:length proportions at work as well as of tone-hole placement and size.

14

My first reaction on seeing this flute is EEEEEEEK! I’m sorry, but to me it is hammerhead-shark-ugly. Obviously some will disagree but I think there are going to be some that just would not want to be seen in public with Mr. Hyde.

Since I have been having some problems with my wrist while playing my D flute I can see the advantage of this design but as mentioned, if it was going to commercially successful it would have been by now. That is not to say you shouldn’t give it a go because there are bound to be some that would buy it. Just don’t expect the orders to come tumbling in.

By all accounts, there are a LOT of instruments with very old designs that could technically be improved for comfort, but most like the look and feel of the traditional just fine. I personally love the clean lines of a keyless transverse flute.

15

Indeed jem I’d dearly love to see a clip of you playing the Giorgi style head on your low-whistle finger-tube – I presume it’s in D? Try sticking on a thumb rest or two in order to press the thing more firmly to the lower jaw, perhaps.

On the D body, how’s the intonation? If you can slide the Giorgi head, can you get the thing to play as well in tune as when you use it as a low whistle?

16

might be better with a neck strap…

thumb rest wouldn’t hurt…just the right w/strap

17

How about an elastic strap with velcro tabs along the side to adjust the exact amount of pressure that the flute is forced against your lips?

18

might get some push back form marketing on that one Doug :astonished:

19

Umm… This is starting to sound suspiciously like a clandestine modification of the Flute Beard. :smiley: :laughing:

20

oh! that would help hide the velcro!!! :smiley: