I haven’t yet harvested and manipulated the rather dark photos to get a better look - seems to be something sticking out under the foot joint - a touch for the R thumb? I can’t see what it is attached to/operates, though. Otherwise the foot key set-up looks like other similar examples. This must be quite a late one to have been built this way! There seems to be a snapped off (& missing) touch for the extra Bb lever and there is what I assume is a D trill key as well as a high E one - and the upper body/barrel socket/tenon arrangement is reversed as on other similar ones (not Rob’s!).
… but that thing - the extra bit - on the foot joint looks to me like someone has just clipped an extra bit onto the original Eb key. Maybe so they can use the Eb flat key without turning the foot joint in? (I’m thinking of someone who may not have wanted/needed to use the other keys on the foot.)
Indeed, Kevin - and to the DCM one and another one we had in discussion somewhere here on C&F fairly recently (I haven’t gone hunting)… but this one at #6169 is much later than most of those.
Ben, I still haven’t had a chance to manipulate the pics, but I agree that flange seems to be an extension to the Eb key… but I don’t think your explanation (a rational enough idea) quite works - if you turned the foot joint away ITM style to clear the grasshopper-key touches “out of the way”, that flange would occlude R3s access to the E tone-hole, or at least get caught by R3 when playing D… yet it would seem to be intended to be played with R3 as it is too far up-flute (if you keep the grasshopper touches in a playable rotation) for R4 without tucking that under R3??? Perhaps it is meant to be rotated to a position where one could play D normally but rock R3 down to catch the flange to get an Eb and allow fingering of combinations of notes from the grasshopper keys with Eb (which have to be played with R4), e.g C to Eb or low Bb to Eb etc. - likely enough to be desirable if using that register and otherwise impossible without a momentary gap or worse, burble. Of course, one could also slip R3 down onto it to get a vented E nat as well.
i’ll be checking the database tonight and provide the details, but on first blush, you seem to be right, Jem. This is a rather late flute for the Bb foot and upper trill keys.
I think it’s possible the Eb extension is merely a means for someone with a very short pinkey finger to use the flute (an amputated tip, perhaps?). Many of these flutes were doctored for the hands of the individual owner, some with ghastly changes to the originals. There’s a Wylde piccolo in the DCM that reflects such a fix.
Nevertheless, what’s more fascinating is how RR knew to use the male barrel rather than the typical female, in order to accommodate the longer body caused by the high trill keys.
Several PH were placed onto these longer-foot flutes to counter balance the weight differential, which actually worked rather well. I’m surprised not to see it on this one.
okay
it’s the last of any 13-key flute in the database, which only lists 4 others.
the earliest is the DCM flute, SN#1959.
Also are # 5096 (also DCM), 5353 and 5399.
All of them have Patent Heads.
clearly these were custom-ordered flutes. Someone really wanted it. Why else make so few and so sporadically?
My guess is in the 5xxx series that RR was offering them
What could also have occurred is a well-known player was using one in performance, ergo the desire to have one (though still very few).
The 1959 flute is the first appearance of the Patent head, c.1832.
Another nice element of this one, #6169 .. it’s thus far the last appearance of the 100 New Bond St. address (which appears at 5655) before it flips to 20 Charing Cross (which was Thomas Key’s address until he sold it to Rudall). That happens at ~ #6194.
coincidentally, 100 New Bond St. address coincides with the arrival of Mr. Carte, when the stamp takes on his name, first as Rudall, Rose & Carte, then as Rudall, Rose, Carte & Co.
Interesting flute when you take this all into account.
David, it looks like you’ve missed out #2602, with interchangeable D and Bb feet, DCM 22F also mentioned on Terry’s web-page linked above - also has a PH, but no extra upper body keys. There is also another one (?or is that one you’ve mentioned, David? - I can’t read the serial no. from the picture…) with PH and Bb foot but “normal” body shown on Rick Wilson’s website.
A Google search for “Rudall and Rose low B flat” brought up an online text (but no plate illustrations of Musical Wind Instruments by Adam Carse because it mentions an illustration of a 10-keyer to low Bb, though not. alas, its serial no.
It seems (browsing about…) that in 1849 Guilio Briccialdi (whilst visiting London) had R&R make him a Bohm flute with an extended foot to low Bb - could that have been the inspiration for the clutch of simple system ones (I think the #5xxx series would be late 1840s-early 1850s) in the ensuing few years, or do they all reflect a passing fashion, perhaps a particularly popular piece of music requiring the extended range?
Radcliffe, I think you may be right (hard to tell!) that the E tone-hole (R3) is slightly off the spine line towards the near (palm) side of the flute, but only very slightly… and I still think my suggestion above the most likely - why would someone with small hands or a missing segment of finger buy a flute with all the extra grasshopper foot keys, even second hand? And if they did buy or inherit it, surely they’d dispense with the extra weight by removing some of them (and losing them!) as they presumably wouldn’t be able to use them! Whether or not that flange is an original or a later addition, I reckon it is to do with an alternate Eb/vented E fingering for use in conjunction with the extended foot range, not an adaptation for a handicap.
It doesn’t look much out of line to me. But then, it isn’t on the part that you showed the picture of, Radcliffe …
And Jem, I still reckon that that flange is added - you can see a sort of clip thing going over the top of what was presumably the original Eb key. If someone bought or inherited the flute, I reckon they may have had enough sense not to permanently damage the flute by making a permanent alteration, which is why I reckon they added that flange - easily removeable, I bet. And I’d go with the small hands, or someone just not interested in using the foot keys, apart from the Eb.
OK, here are manipulated versions of the vendor’s pictures - making things a bit clearer!
Now I don’t think that E tone-hole is significantly off the main line of tone-holes, and I agree the “flange” on the Eb key is clearly an addition, though whether it “clips” on (and off) is not discernible. I also think it possible that the keys are sterling rather than German Silver… though it isn’t really possible to tell for sure from these pictures - they look a bit “white” to me for GS, and there’s no obvious verdigris anywhere - but I’ve been deceived by whiter than usual GS before! The rings look silver and there is certainly remains of plating on the tuning slide - and so far as I know R&R generally didn’t mix metals (ignoring brass liner tubes) - you either had sterling fittings or GS.
The snapped-off extra Bb touch can now be seen clearly.
i should have clearly said 13-key flutes, Jem…
i wasn’t speaking of the Bb foot flutes, which could easily be a 10-key.
This is only one of 5 13-key flutes (which would include the double-Bb touch)
I’ll check the database tonight to see about the Bb foot flutes.
Yes…all those others you had i clearly do have on the database list.
haha…would take a bit to find such a “public” flute that isn’t in the database!
A Google search for “Rudall and Rose low B flat” brought up an online text (but no plate illustrations of Musical Wind Instruments by Adam Carse because it mentions an illustration of a 10-keyer to low Bb, though not. alas, its serial no.
jem…this one is actually #4235 that resides at the Horniman Museum in London.
And to answer the earlier inquiry, here are the total number of catalogued flutes with the following “lower-than-C” foot joints on a Concert D flute
B - 10 flutes
Bb - 14 flutes
one of the B foot flutes was a lovely boxwood variety that I had with a Patent Head, the only “long foot” Rudall in the catalogue made of boxwood.
The vendor of this flute made this post in the other recent Rudall sales thread, but I think it is more appropriate to respond to it here, so I have copied it over and my response follows.
Hi Graham, and welcome aboard. I’m glad you found our discussions - and that you found them helpful. I’m also happy that you’re happy with the price your flute (RR&C #6169) achieved and I’m delighted at your news that it found a flute-loving and (more importantly) playing home. Do you know if the new owner plans to restore and play it and can you tell us without breaking any confidences what continent/nation it has gone to?
As for your queries, there are of course no absolute answers, but my opinion FWIW is that the price you got was at the lower end of what a knowledgeable enthusiast might subjectively hope or expect such an instrument would achieve, but not too low - maybe a trifle disappointing, but not unfair. If pressed I think (says he with benefit of hindsight) that I’d have guessed at anything in the £4-8k (GBP, say U$6-12k) bracket would not have been surprising, but the upper end of that was unlikely in the current market, though I don’t think it would be intrinsically over-valuing the instrument. Full restoration would improve its value to a player but not necessarily to a collector, and this flute might not be that attractive to the kind of player these days most interested in playing a Rudall - the ITM musician, whereas it probably has a higher value to a collector than a more “standard” R&R - contrary forces speculatively at work, then.
Just a note on (your reflection of) David M’s stats on the rarity of these flutes - his comments do imply but perhaps don’t make clear that one cannot say the cited examples of similar flutes are the only such that the firm made - they are the thus far known surviving examples, and there may have been others either destroyed unrecorded or as yet unrevealed. Nonetheless, this kind of instrument was certainly exceptional within the Rudall output.
chiff&fipple is an excellent research tool and a lot of fun too !
The flutes gone to a collector / player in the good old U.S. of A.
( I expect the new owner will probably contact David sometime in the near future).
My take on things suggests the flute will be restored and played. The new owner and i intend to keep in touch, ( i intend to continue researching the flute, and in exchange the new owner will send me some decent photos and some audio - i’m very keen to hear the flute played ).
As for the value / price ? I think your spot on, I’ve been conversing with a very fine chiff&fippler since the first day i listed the flute and your $ range is pretty much identical to ours !
A good point to note - Actual price achieved, leaves plenty of room for a top notch restoration to be under taken
Thanks for clearing up my error.
I wrongly thought/assumed that David’s historical data had come from the original Rudall stock books via Horniman Museum / Robert Bigio.
I will remenber in future - " THUS FAR KNOWN " examples, again many thanks.
I’m afraid my musical knowledge is rather limited to my Boosey & Hawkes / Swaine & Isaac Fox hunting horns (a throw back to my original roots), although the flute appears to have a magnetic charm about it !!! - what’s I T M ???
I’ve been conversing with a very fine chiff&fippler since the first day i listed the flute and your $ range is pretty much identical to ours !
