Right hand problems

Irish Flute
1

Okay, so I’m six or seven months into playing the flute, embouchure developing slowly but surely I think, and tone is also coming along. But I’ve begun to develop a problem in my right hand. I thought the left would have been the problem and the right was fairly relaxed, but no. the right is definitely the difficult hand at the moment. Sometimes I catch myself sort of twisting the right hand and tensing up but I can’t quite make out what’s going on.

As to my current grip I’m more or less following the advice in GL’s book, though I’ve also tried more of a piper’s grip and watched numerous videos of eg Matt Molloy to try to figure out what’s going on there.

Basically, the pain I have is in the back of my hand (opposite the palm) and also a little along the little finger (pinky). It’s not too bad as yet but I’d really like to get it sorted now before going any further as I know from bitter experience what may lie ahead if I don’t.

I’ve been working on resolving this for about a month but it’s no better. Any advice would be much appreciated.

2

You are wise to not ignore pain.

By your description, I have some idea of your situation, but not enough to have a clear picture.

To comfortably span the distances between the right hand holes, it is traditional to flatten one’s right hand, to allow the RH fingers to spread out laterally.

The RH wrist should then be more or less straight, and not bent toward one side or the other.

Perhaps your troubles could have to do with just how and where you are placing your supporting thumb, for that can affect the forces in your right hand. With a flattened palm, as above, the thumb needs to be turned more or less sideways to the palm, and moved inwards somewhat, such that the tip of the thumb is more or less between the first and the second fingers, although the exact position is what works best for you.

Am I on track, or am I way off?

3

I don’t know what Cork is talking about when he talks on the thumb. I agree with Cork about the wrist not being bent one way or the other.

Also. I would like to suggest that your arms should be relaxed as possible. In fact, you should be able to flap your right elbow like a pelican even as you apply your RH pipers’ grip. If you can’t do that your approach is too uptight and there are many interdependent factors that could account for that including whole body posture, flute angle, grip type and execution, pre-existing tensions (eg chronic stiff shoulder) etc.

4

It’s a matter of keeping the thumb in line. The thumb provides some of the support of the flute, and, if the thumb is not in line with that supporting force, then the hand could tend to rotate around the wrist, side to side, which then causes certain muscles to compensate, which then leads to stress troubles. By keeping the thumb in line with the force needed to hold the flute, the hand remains balanced, not tending to rotate.

5

My right thumb tends to be much further towards the head joint than you are suggesting Cork - clear of the fingers altogether and placed half way between being under the flute and against the side of it. So I’ll experiment with that today and do some mirror work to make sure the wrist is more or less straight.

I’m also going to do the ‘pelican’ thing :slight_smile: to make sure I’m nice and relaxed. From what I’ve seen there doesn’t seem to be a ‘correct’ angle for the elbow - some players have the forearm almost vertical whereas others have it lifted almost to the horizontal, so I’ve been going for a happy medium.

It’s so hard to describe this positional stuff that I’m going to take some pics today and post them. Could anyone tell me how to post photos here? Do I need a hosting service or something?

Thanks

6

also a little along the little finger (pinky)

I’ve had a that problem for a long time, I think it’s caused by pressing too hard on the flute with the little finger, it just happened one day and has never gone away so I would watch that as well as the other problem. I find that wrapping an elastoplast around the tip of my little finger has a cushioning affect and stops the pain.

7

While you are working out how to do your photo thing check this out.
http://www.geocities.com/feadanach/posture.html

8

LOL Yes, holding a flute is an adventure, describing how to do it is even more of an adventure, and interpreting such a description is the greatest adventure of all.

The position of the RH thumb is not a “natural” one, being turned under one’s hand, to then hold the flute with just the tip of one’s thumb. The chin, the left hand, and the right hand, all need to work as a coordinated team just to support the flute, while not getting in the way of finger movement. It’s something of a juggling act.

9

Mmmmm - obviously, without seeing your posture, trying to suggest ways to explore improving it to make sure it isn’t the cause of your problem (which does seem likely!) is rather fraught, as has been said! Ideally there shouldn’t be any tension at all.

The R elbow should not be held up nor clamped to the side, but just float fairly freely out to the side and be un-tense enough to bounce slightly.

The R thumb position is crucial - and it is amazing what a difference a few millimetres difference in how you place it can make, either longitudinally along the tube or laterally/rotationally around it. As the one digit that never operates anything on any type of flute, it is still one of the most important. There is no one “correct” position for it, but there are principles to establish the right position for you. Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd fingers and slightly more to the rear side of the tube than under it are fair starting guidelines, [so that it provides the supporting (light) pressure away to balance with the chin against the central inward pressure of the L forefinger-side], but experiment…

Try starting by placing your finger pads (NOT tips) on the holes (in playing position) with the R wrist and back of the hand more-or-less straight through from the elbow, arm sloping down c 45 degrees; for now leave your thumb hanging free. The pads of the R fingers should fall onto the tone holes comfortably with the fingers roughly at right-angles to the tube and more-or-less horizontal from lowest knuckle to tip, not straight (tense!) but just slightly arched (middle finger slightly more arched than index and ring), relaxed and flexible. You should be able to move them firmly, but don’t squeeze the tube or flatten the fingers - it causes tension! The R little finger can rest against the side of the tube (or on the Eb key if you have one) as an extra support, but again, light and relaxed is sufficient. Now simply fold your thumb up under your hand in its natural “opposed” rotation and see where it hits the tube… then adjust it minimally(if necessary) to provide that light, outward push.

I would NEVER advocate “piper’s grip” on the flute - it seems to me that, whilst fine on whistle or pipes down in front of you, it is inevitably tense up in flute posture. If you are having trouble spanning the holes, getting the “conventional” R hand posture correct should solve that - or you need a flute better suited to you ergonomically.

You can also experiment somewhat with the assembly of the flute, especially if you have separate upper and lower body joints - try rotating the R hand tone holes inwards or outwards (more likely) compared to the L hand ones (after you have those place as you wish them with regard to the embouchure). Aim for those R hand fingers to stay just slightly curved and falling comfortably onto the holes without tension…

If you get the balance of the instrument right between the three/four pressure points, you should be able to jig around quite bullishly with ALL your fingers raised (save the R little one) and the L thumb away from the tube too, without fear of dropping the instrument - try it! I disagree with Cork’s “juggling act” comment! It is actually quite simple if shown properly, but I agree describing it is rather harder!

Sometimes another source of harmful tension is in the rotational body posture around the vertical axis - i.e. the shoulders and neck. For most people with average physique, the least tense position will be with the head turned somewhat to the left so that the left wrist is virtually directly in front of the centre of the chest when holding the flute; the flute will be angling out between about 30-40 degrees from the line through the shoulders and the R elbow will be roughly on or just forward of that line through the shoulders, but at the level of the bottom of the ribs. Both elbows should be out from the body, but not “held” there, just floating slightly bouncily.

Hope this is helpful.
Good luck!

10

This is sensible.

It if were me I would return to a classical grip on the rt hand,
following the basics in GL book. Rt thumb under flute, between
r1 and r2. Pinky used to brace when needed. Use mirror
to be sure wrist is straight.

Adjust left hand, etc, accordingly to make the classical
grip work.

Grey thinks classical is more agile; I use both pipers and
classical and I agree with him. If you took a lesson,
he would tell you to do this (told me).

This change may well shift whatever is going wrong. The position
you describe (with Lthumb out to the left of the other
fingers, partly under, partly against flute) may be creating
stress.

Good luck,

Jim (4 one-half years)

11

naturally flat fingers, resting on the toneholes, are the most relaxed and efficient for the hand.
stop using a deathgrip.

12

People talk about holding the flute because they don’t know what to say about the music. (Rob called me a wanker for saying this.) Classical violin teachers are the worst. They all say that the left wrist must be straight and that you must hold the bow just so. But if you look at some really wonderful fiddlers - Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, Eileen Ivers, Zoe Conway, Brid Harper - they can hold the fiddle and the bow however they want to. They aren’t locked into one position. They are relaxed. When they need to have straight wrist they can adjust to that position, effortlessly.
Great fluters are loose in the same way. Some rest the flute on their shoulder. Some play with straight fingers, some with curved fingers. Some cover the holes with tips, some with the distal or intermediate phalanges. Some play with tight, some with loose embouchure. Some (Seamus Egan) nearly cover the embouchure hole with their lips. Others draw back.
My advice, after twenty years of playing, is to ignore what everybody (except rama LDD) has said so far. And:

  1. Get strong. If your hands and your wrists and your arms are strong you won’t be straining. Get some dumbbells and work out, or do push-ups and chins. If you are weak it will be that much harder to make good music for hours at a time.
  2. Get flexible. Stretch. Do yoga. Jascha Heifetz wrote a book about playing the fiddle and he starts with the advice that you should be loose. If you are loose you won’t be tense and you will be able to find your comfort zone.
  3. Get comfortable. As you progress you will find many different ways of holding the flute. They are all correct if you hold it so that you are comfortable. If you are comfortable a variety of grips will be possible.

The tension isn’t the result of your bad grip. There is no such thing as a bad grip. Anymore than there is a perfect flute or a “correct” embouchure (all things being equal). The “bad grip” proceeds from your tension. Don’t strangle the flute. Just get loose and comfy and play a waltz. When you get tense, stop and relax. Then pick up the flute and find a more comfortable way of holding it. Loosen your lips and roll your head around to loosen your neck. All will be well if you stick with it. I guarantee it.

People on this forum who have been playing a while, and who have demonstrated that they can play, don’t talk about a particular grip or give specific advice to that end. They just tell you to relax. And to enjoy the trip.

13

Thanks for the advice so far. Here are some photos of my right hand taken whilst playing today. This is the first time I’ve posted images, so fingers crossed… Any observations would be welcome.

14

I’ve seen literally hundreds of methods for holding the flute… relaxing the grip/ hands/ arms/ shoulders/ everything is the key to not getting pain regardless of what weird way you hold the thing.

You might want to try this strange experiment: get someone else to hold the flute, one hand near the top, one hand near the bottom, have them do it at your head level obviously, then put your fingers/ thumbs on it as lightly as possibe and play… I’ll let you draw your own conclusions (if any).

I’ve noticed the trend of people (me included) tightening their grip as they increase breath pressure… this isn’t necesary at all.

You could try the above experiment blowing hard with as light a ‘grip’ as possible.

Two words: relinquish control.

Regards,

Harry.

15

So I guess that Harry and Cocusflute are more or less saying the same thing, summed up by the phrase ‘relinquish control’ (which is of course easier said than done…). I’ve certainly noticed that I tend to grip harder on the second octave which is ridiculous but I find it hard to stop myself. I’ll try your ideas. Thanks again all.

16

good advice, as always.

M

17

Now I understand yourearlier thumb comment better. Thanks.

Gododin, you must have missed points in my earlier post because you have only provided hands focussed pictures. I would like to make whole body posture assessment but you have not provided anything for that.

As I said, the grip needs to be as relaxed as possible. However, while it is the hands that grip that is not where the relaxation starts or finishes.

18

'The tension isn’t the result of your bad grip. There is no such thing as a bad grip. Anymore than there is a perfect flute or a “correct” embouchure (all things being equal). The “bad grip” proceeds from your tension. Don’t strangle the flute. Just get loose and comfy and play a waltz. When you get tense, stop and relax. Then pick up the flute and find a more comfortable way of holding it. Loosen your lips and roll your head around to loosen your neck. All will be well if you stick with it. I guarantee it.

People on this forum who have been playing a while, and who have demonstrated that they can play, don’t talk about a particular grip or give specific advice to that end. They just tell you to relax. And to enjoy the trip.

…

I think the advice your giving is very good, as is Harry’s. Also
I expect it may be of real help to the poster, whose pictures
suggest that he is using a pretty standard classical grip,
as best I can see.


Two reservations:
Personally I don’t think piper’s grip is bad. As mentioned I use it
on flute, along with classical. When first I went to get a lesson
from Grey L, I was using classical on my left hand and pipers
on my rt–no reason, just picked it up that way. He told me
to shift to classical on rt. Said it would be more agile.
I do think it’s good advice, I’m more
agile that way.

More recently I’ve shifted back to pipers because I have
a ganglion cyst in my left wrist and need to get the pressure
off. Well, might as well do it rt hand too. I’ve been playing
piper’s for several months now this way. It’s pretty good.
It’s relaxed and natural, straight wrists. left hand rolls
are easier, slides are easy. As my cyst is improving (or I’m
better able to accomodate it), I’m beginning to move
back into classical. It’s somewhat more agile for me, even
after the long lay off. The finger pads and balls feel the holes
better, fit them more nimbly, and a curved finger does seem
to move a bit quicker. The mechanics of the finger favor
it a little, I believe. Orthopaedist says that too.

So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with piper’s grip, I
don’t think it’s bad, and it has some advantages. Also there
are people out there playing pipers who will play rings around
most people using classical. But I do think there’s something
to what Grey said. At least for some of us.
No I don’t think he told me that because he
didn’t know what to say about the music.

Second, while ‘bad grip’ can result from tension,
the opposite is sometimes true too. That is, people
sometimes have this or that finger or wrist or
elbow in a position that
is causing them pain or causing stress. I think the advice
‘When pain arises, never review in detail your posture,
where your fingers are placed, how your wrists are positioned; just loosen
your lips, roll your head around, get comfy–it’ll work out’’
is going too far to the other extreme. Loosening your lips
and rolling your head around and trying to get
comfy with the thing is definitely a good idea, by all means,
but it may not be enough.

For instance I was quite comfy and happy at
four years in when I began to develop increasing
pain in my rt hand, especially across the rt top side of it.
And I did relax and all the rest, and I lift weights, by the way, and I
stretch and I meditate, but the pain got worse.

So I began to look carefully and particularly.
After awhile I noticed that my rt thumb
had gradually gravitated down the flute so that it was past r2.
This had worked well enough for good while, but my hand was stressed
on account of it
and it was causing the pain. My thumb needed to move up.
But it didn’t want to go! So I put adhesive tape on all
my flutes in the place where my thumb was meant to go.
Did it to my whistles too and I slowly trained myself to change
my thumb position so that it was between R1 and R2.

No more pain.

So I think you are giving a good deal of helpful advice, but
perhaps when taken to extremes it becomes less good.

As to the suggestion that ‘People on this forum who have been playing a while, and who have demonstrated that they can play’ (that is have
posted a clip) are those whose
advice really matters, I don’t think this serves the purposes
of people asking questions. People in your favored group sometimes
give bad advice, people outside it sometimes give
good advice. Posting clips, whatever, of course, is a
good idea. But privileging that bunch discounts too many people without
a good reason.

19

Well, I thought a bit of humor could be a good thing. Besides, until a player has a good understanding of the many details involved, just maybe juggling could be a fair description.

20

Just for now, try to not use your L4 and R4 for support. On the right hand, you want to support the flute with only your thumb, and removing any influence of your R4 will help you get the thumb into place.

Two of the three photos show your left wrist at a fairly sharp angle. See if you can get that wrist a bit straighter. A lot goes on in a wrist, and extreme angles can lead to injuries, not good.