Charles Roberts CP chanter,3/16 inch tubing staple. When making reeds the note I have the most trouble bringing into tune is the first 8ve C#. I have not been able to locate the area of the scrape that affects C#.
I think I have an understanding of the bottom of the “V” affecting the bottom E and D, the sides of the scrape affecting the ease of play, and the thickness of the lips affecting the 2nd 8ve E and the back D.
I scrape and adjust each reed over 7 to 10 days with an hour or two of playing each day. What I have noticed is that C# always starts out very flat and that as I clip the lips back (I actually use 2-3 strokes, at a time, on 220 grit paper on the end of the reed to adjust length) and scrape the bottom of the “V”, the center and edges of the scrape to bring the other notes into tune the C# will come into 5-10 cents flat. I have continued on past this point with several reeds and the C# sharp will head back flat while other notes head sharp or flat. There appears to be a fairly wide window that all the other notes will be in tune in 1st and 2nd 8ve, C# appears to have a very narrow window where it will come up to slighty flat. I put my reed into a CP Froment chanter and the only difference, after moving the reed further into the chanter, was that the C# was 25-30 cents flat and the 1st 8ve E was sharp 20 cents.
I generally follow Seth Gallaghers’ reed method with some modifications I learned from Bill Tiernan (very nice gentleman) last month.
Does anyone have advice on where the area of the scrape that affects C# is located? Does anyone have input on other factors that affect C#?
While I am blathering on, has anyone ever tried heating a brass 3/16 inch tube and forcing it over a mandrel to stretch it to the size of a rolled staple?
Please be gentle with me, I’m a sensitive guy. 
I hope you aren’t attempting to tune your chanter to equal temperament (what electronic tuners measure).
The chanter should be tuned to the drones and if measured with a tuner, both C natural and C sharp will measure flat (Es measure sharp, etc), but the (each) note should against the drones with harmony. Play C natural against D on the piano, then listen to a good piper. Hear the difference in harmony?
If you don’t have drones, try using a midi reed instrument (pitched at your bell note pitched to your bell note , an ocatve below, 2 octaves below) to tune it, or play the note with a recording with drones and compare that note to the same one when it appears on the recording.
Try a board search for “just intonation” and “equal temperment”.
[quote=“srfmowman”]Charles Roberts CP chanter,3/16 inch tubing staple. When making reeds the note I have the most trouble bringing into tune is the first 8ve C#. I have not been able to locate the area of the scrape that affects C#.
I think I have an understanding of the bottom of the “V” affecting the bottom E and D, the sides of the scrape affecting the ease of play, and the thickness of the lips affecting the 2nd 8ve E and the back D.
Does anyone have advice on where the area of the scrape that affects C# is located? Does anyone have input on other factors that affect C#?
While I am blathering on, has anyone ever tried heating a brass 3/16 inch tube and forcing it over a mandrel to stretch it to the size of a rolled staple?
quote]
Hi,
There doesn’t seem to be a particular “zone” that affects C#, it seems to me to be mostly in the lips (strength/thickness) and the stability of the reed. Depth of staple into head also has a bearing (obviously that’s directly connected to stability). With the particular mention of the Froment, which I find usually have a fairly “true” C#, a guess would be to slightly thicken your slip (1.3 - 1.5mm if you use below that), and tie on fairly strongly. With a Froment, I would start with the staple at 20mm into the reed head.
For zones, Davey Stephenson used to have a diagram of Pete Hunters “zones” on his website ( www.bagpipeworks.com?) I don’t know if his sites still there, but I have a version of same PH notes if you want stuff.
3 1/6 tubing? what’s that in mm? A little less than 4mm? I tried a weird yoke for “expanding” tubing, but it just got stuck on the thing. When you say rolled, do you have a specific diam., in mind? I find that a 4mm steel rod can tap up tubing to a fair degree and can iron out any specific chanter peculiarities.
While I’m rambling, use tubing with a wall thickness of approx .5mm, if you haven’t already you’ll be amazed at the difference.
Alan
trying to get C# in tune is a pain in the hole.
C natural is “supposed” to be flat to comply with the laws of natural intonation. Thats fine but because C # comes out of the same hole on the chanter its flat too. Its not mean’t to be but it is. The Taylor lads tuned up the C# on some of their chanters but then you had to use the C natural key to play the natural note.
Some of the travelling pipers used to make that C hole bigger to have the C# note more equally tempered but then they’d use the key for the natural note, the Dorans et al. You’ll hear Finbar Furey using the key too.
Struggle on.
Tommy
I realize that my comments will not answer your questions about where in the reed the C# lives…but, the thread has brought to mind a recent discussion that I had with Benedict Koehler. I just received a 3/4 B set of K+Q pipes (lucky me, I know). Due to some initial indiosyncracies with the pear chanter that DMQ made for the set (correct me if I’m wrong, David…if you’re listening), K+Q decided to give me the opportunity to “try out” three different B chanters, including the pear. Two of the chanters, pear included, are based on a Coyne design. The other is based on a Colgan (a la JOBM’s Colgan). There are obvious differences in aesthetics between the three (one pear, one plum, the other ziricote), but there are differences in the bores and in the hole spacing, primarily in the C#(nominal) and E(nominal) notes, between the Colgan and the Coynes. Obvious tuning differences lie in the C# note, though there are subtle intonation differences, as well (the Colgan being the brightest of the three…Coynes a little mellower). The Coynes have both Cnat. and C# notes playing in tune. The Colgan has a Cnat. in tune but a flat C#. The way I understand it, from talking with BK, is that the Colgan design compromises tuning of the C# in favor of intonation of the Cnat.. The Colgan Cnat. is a bit more complex in tone than that of the Coynes, whereas the C# is quite flat. Coyne apparently remedied this by changing the bore and the hole spacing, resulting in spot-on tuning for both these notes but a lack of some of the tonal complexity that Colgan had in the Cnat. Another solution on the Colgan chanter, which I’ve chosen after listening to BK and Pat Sky, is to have the C# hole undercut (I believe that’s the term) so that the C# is brought closer in tune. This puts the Cnat. sharp of where it should be, but apparently many older pipers developed the technique of shading the Cnat. by “pointing” that finger instead of “lifting” that finger, to bring the Cnat. in tune. I hadn’t heard of using the Cnat. key, but I guess this would work, too. By shading this note, one can really drive the sound of the Cnat one gets from the chanter. I like this concept of playing, which puts the piper in the driver’s seat. Although with this particular Colgan-based chanter, there’s a kind of “dialogue” as BK put it, between piper and chanter. From having played it myself, I think that what BK is referring to is this incredible tonal richness and variety…that a single note can have so many tonal variations as to create an ongoing process of learning, on the piper’s part, as to how to get certain tones to come from the chanter. Anyway, I just thought that I’d share this thought with you guys, since it has been on my mind recently and seems remotely related to this topic. Again, sorry that I can’t help with your reed, but perhaps the problem is not with the reed.?
I found this thread really interesting so I tried on my chanter ( one of Brian Howards current ones ) with the aid of his fingering chart on his website and ,surprise, surprise–no problem.So I rang him and asked his opinion.He said that the answer is in the modern bore and that it is a chanter problem and not a reed one. Whereas not so long ago he would have told me in detail I think he has been affected by the personal abuse posted on this site ( and this really hacks me off, so I can only imagine how he reacts) and now regards such information as ‘commercially sensitive’. If the chanter I bought displaid this characteristic I would take it back to the maker and ask for his solution. With regard to the idea of heating brass tube over a mandrel – again Brian has tried it but now sells staples which are tapered internally. You were at the Birmingham Tionol ,AlanB, didn’t you notice the new staples? A group of us sat and watched Brian assemble a reed from his kit in less than 15 minutes ( I timed it-sad I know, but it takes me 40 minutes!) One fellow had a disasterous chanter, fitted with a plastic reed, and after watching the demo tried the result in the offensive article ( worse than the Pakistani chanter I started out on ) and although everyone present thought it a vast improvement ( none of us were deaf or blind!) he still chose to soldier on rather than buy a kit.Try www.howardmusic.co.uk and good luck! ( if you are similarly financially embarassed, you can buy the staples alone without the prepared slips).
[quote=“teirw”]You were at the Birmingham Tionol ,AlanB, didn’t you notice the new staples? quote]
No I didn’t, I was too busy trying to fix peoples pipes and give an insight into reedmaking and reed care. If you knew I was there, you should have made yourself known.
Alan
Fancypiper- I went back and read the past threads on just intonation. Am I wrong that the octaves are still the same distance apart (Bottom D to back D)? Are the notes in between just adjusted a little flat or sharp to sound good against the drones? Are the other trad instruments just or equal? If I want to play with other instruments (whistle,fiddle, ect.) do I tune to just or equal? When I play a two octave scale on my chanter the 1st 8ve C# sounds “good” to my ear 5 -10 cents flat on a korg tuner with all the other notes sounding the right distance apart (“good”) when they are right on according to the tuner. This also sounds good against a electronic drone D (I don’t have any of the real McCoy 
)
Alan- Where and when are you measuring the thickness of the slip? I put the staple into the head 7/8" from the tail (~22.5mm) as per S.Gallagher. Would you go down to 20mm? 3/16" OD tubing is ~4mm ID. The tubing I get at the hobby shop is 0.5mm wall thickness. I didn’t have a specific diameter for a rolled staple other than from S. Gallaghers website (~3.8mm-4.8mm).
Thanks to everyone so far. Feel free to chime in, I am open to trying any input that I can.
Fancypiper- I went back and read the past threads on just intonation. Am I wrong that the octaves are still the same distance apart (Bottom D to back D)?
Octaves would be a 2:1 ratio. I tune to bottom D=293.7 hz, which would make the A approx 2-3 cents sharp of A=440 hz when in tune.
Are the notes in between just adjusted a little flat or sharp to sound good against the drones?
They are tuned to harmonize against the drones (whole number ratios) which shows them to be flat or sharp when detected by an ET tuner.
Are the other trad instruments just or equal? If I want to play with other instruments (whistle,fiddle, ect.) do I tune to just or equal?
It depends upon the instrument. Pianos and fretted instruments are tuned ET (but tuning DADGAD or something similar helps the tuning), fiddles, whistles, flutes and pipes and voices tend to play in just intonation because it harmonizes better.
When I play a two octave scale on my chanter the 1st 8ve C# sounds “good” to my ear 5 -10 cents flat on a korg tuner with all the other notes sounding the right distance apart (“good”) when they are right on according to the tuner. This also sounds good against a electronic drone D (I don’t have any of the real McCoy icon_cry.gif )
If your E sounds good against a D drone and it also shows dead on on the tuner, one or the other (your ear or your tuner) is bad, I am afraid. You get the same situation similar to the C# against D again…
Bottom D should be 293.7 hertz
A MUST be 440
Back D is 587.3
C# 550
Cnat. ..hovers around 513-517..
G MUST be 391.6 (perfect third)
I don’t specifically measure the thickness everytime. But the combination of cane size, gouge depth and former diameter dictates pretty much what you end up with, but I guess using callipers to measure the centre of the slip curve, and this is best noted from the lips when you have cut the slip into its two halves.
20mm is my starting point as that’s the head>staple focus point that suits my chanter optimally for what I require from a reed response and tone wise, though whatever tunes your 8ve really. I might drop that to 18 ish for a Roberts chanter…?..
That tubing should do the trick.
I said earlier “I find that a 4mm steel rod can tap up tubing to a fair degree and can iron out any specific chanter peculiarities.” Hahaha! That’s bollocks, change any for some!!
Charles uses a 4mm ID staple for his reeds if I remember rightly?
Alan
I thought D to F# was a third and D to G was a forth.
..whoops, 
nope, your right, f# is the third and G is the fourth…my apologies…
Just vs Equal Temperament
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
Eddie Climo on Just Temperament vs Equal Intonation
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="equal+temperament"+daye&spell=1
Hey all,
Thank you very much for the input!!
Fancypiper- I am certain it is my ears. I am still trying to “train my ears”, but they mind me slightly less than my children. I do appreciate the info on what I should be listening for and I will keep working on it.
Alan- I have been getting hammered night and day at work, but I have a few days off to try the different staple insertions. Thanks.
Thank you everyone else for the input and the links. I guess I will get to work and I will let you know how they turn out.
John
Yes Charles uses 4 mm staples. But I have a 10 year old Roberts chanter that isn’t happy with that size. The chanter has a narrower bore than most concert pitch chanters and with a 4 mm staple strange things will happen. Like a very sharp second octave and a weird c# to name a few. You can fix the second octave by making the eye smaller and therefore reducing the inner volume. But you will keep the other ‘mismatch’ effects.
It’s better to use a smaller staple, around 3.7 mm ID and a tapered one if you are critical and want the top a and b in tune. If it is a chanter of the same bore design as I have all your problems will be solved.
Evertjan
Hey all,
Evertjan 't Hart- Are you saying that a tapered staple took care of a flat C# in your chanter? I haven’t had a problem with getting the two octaves in with a tubing staple in the Charles Roberts or the Froment CP chanters. I do wonder how how much difference there is between a tapered and a tubing staple after the forming of the eye. I suppose I need to make a couple of tapered staples and see what happens.
Alan- I made two reeds for the Froment with the staple inserted 20mm instead of 22.5mm. I gouge the inside of the tail to receive the staple and continue this gouge to to 1 inch from the lips. The slips were 0.52 and 0.49 inches wide and 1.5mm thick. The 0.52 reed tuned in at 75mm protruding from the chanter and the 0.49 reed protruded 81mm. Both reeds are in tune ,both octaves, except for 1st 8ve C# which is 20 cents flat with top finger off XOXXXXXX. Interesting point is that with increased pressure the note goes flatter. The note can be brought up to ten cents flat with a little pressure and opening the cnat key or lifting top 3 fingers XOOOXXXX. These reeds behave identically in my Charles Roberts chanter except the C# is only 10 cents flat with 1 finger up XOXXXXXX.
The difference I could see with the shorter staple insertion is that the 2nd 8ve started out very flat and moved together as I continued the scrape. Usually the second octave starts out sharp and comes into tune as I continue the scrape. The C# in both cases starts heading flat when I start thinning the sides of the scrape to bring the second octave in.
If anyone else wants to kick in on this, don’t be shy. I’m going to keep tying them up and I’m open to trying different variations. Onward to tapered staples!!
John
Interesting, you say about the 2nd 8ve rising whilst you scrape… I don’t have that problem, if anything, the opposite.
I find the tail thickness and staple wall thickness/taper fairly critical. I run a 2nd gouge 15mm from the centre line of the slip to the tail, increasing in depth as it goes. I am left with between 1mm - 0.6mm cane (very approx., guess away from the bench) where the staple will lie. If I go thinner, the 2nd 8ve is flat and the crow has a feeble squeal on it and generally sounds nasty. This is the same when a staple is over formed and the eye spread too wide and the taper too long. My guess is that the staple supports the cavity above the eye and if too narrow, it enlarges the area of cane “speaking” thus reducing the volume and therefore flattening notes/8ves (in these cases, opening the lips remedies the tuning but makes the reed unplayable) and the thinner tails tends to be spread by the binding and collapse at the sides, causing the same. Not that any of this helps the c#…
Another thing about those C#s, shorter staples often cure flatness around b,& c#, but if memory serves me right, pitching a roberts with less than a 50mm staple will be difficult. I’d be making one to Evertjans suggestion..
Alan
Alan-
Interesting, you say about the 2nd 8ve rising whilst you scrape… I don’t have that problem, if anything, the opposite.
I always start trying the reed in the chanter as soon as I get to a decent crow (I’ve only made 25 reeds so far) I don’t see it as a problem, but just as something that occurs as I work my way toward an in tune reed. Before I shortened the insertion of the staple to 20mm I had always seen the 2nd 8ve start out sharp and come into tune with continued scraping. The C# would always hang with the back D until the top 2nd 8ve was 25-30 cents sharp then it would start heading flat with the little bit of scraping that would bring the 2nd 8ve into tune. It was weird to have both reeds with 20mm insertion start with the 2nd 8ve so flat. This time the C# followed the back D until 2nd 8ve was ~20 cents flat then headed flat with the little bit of scraping that brought the 2nd 8ve in tune.
Evertjan-
It’s better to use a smaller staple, around 3.7 mm ID and a tapered one if you are critical and want the top a and b in tune.
Do you have dimensions for the flat sheet before it is rolled for a tapered staple?
Thanks,
John