I should have paid attention. At one time it seemed there was plenty of information about microphones and pipes. That was right after Davy and that river thing.
What’s current for microphones in regards to “from pipes to computer”?
I have the software. Who’s doing what and where’s the microphone put?
That last sentance should bring out the best from those hiding in the woodwork.
Seriously, any help available?
Some folks have asked for sound files and I finally have gotten around to trying it.
Kevin Scott 
Hi Kevin,
I use the Sony ECM-MS907 with my MD recorder and for direct-to computer recording. You can find it for under $100 and I think you’ll be impressed with the results. The ECM-MS907 records in stereo; it has settings for either 90 or 120 degree pick-up fields. Just aim it at the source about three feet back and you’ll be in business.
Larry Dunn
I second the recommendation. You can usually get this from eBay for $70. It has a very good sound, and one of my favourite features, uses a standard AA-size battery instead of some expensive special battery. It’s directional, and the pickup angle can be set to 90 or 120 degrees.
You can check the tech specs here:
http://www.minidisco.com/ecm-ms907.html
I can’t recommend minidisco high enough, BTW. Really great store. But i bought my microphone on eBay because it was cheaper. I just checked eBay and didn’t find any 907s, but i did find a 959 going for a very good price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3080258887&category=14968
Going in less than an hour!
Here’s a bit I found somewhere online several months ago about the Chieftains and their recording/performance issues. It may shed some light on what they think works anyway. 
(warning…this is LONG!)
THE CHIEFTAINS
BY CANDACE HORGAN
Mix, Jun 1, 2002
After 40 years of recording and touring the world, The Chieftains have become an institution in Irish music, a musical idiom otherwise known for impermanence. The Chieftains’ stature is such that they can record and tour with almost anybody: Previous collaborators have included Roger Daltrey, Nanci Griffith, Van Morrison, Joan Osborne, Loreena McKennitt, Natalie Merchant, Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Raitt, Sinéad O’Connor, Sting and the Rolling Stones. On The Chieftains’ winter 2002 tour of the United States, they were joined by Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, fiddle great Natalie MacMaster, guitarist Jeff White (who has also played with Vince Gill and Alison Krauss) and sultry songstress Allison Moorer.
The Chieftains are Kevin Conneff on bodhrán and vocals, Derek Bell on harp and keyboards, Matt Molloy on flute, Seán Keane on fiddle, and Paddy Moloney on uilleann pipes and tin whistle. FOH engineer is Mark Horton, who has worked with the band since 1998. Mix caught up with Horton at the Paramount in Denver, Colo.
As Horton relates it, he originally started doing sound because no one else could do it. “I played guitar in bands when I was a kid, and I always had to set up the sound system because no one else could figure it out,” he explains. “When guitar gigs started drying out, the sound gigs started to appear. I started doing sound professionally in 1995. Ashley MacIsaac, a great fiddler from Cape Breton, hired me as his engineer in 1995. I’m from Nova Scotia, and I knew Ashley’s management people, so that’s how I got that gig. In the summer of 1996, Ashley toured as the opener for The Chieftains and I met Dan Cleland, who was doing sound and also acting as tour manager. Shortly thereafter, he hired me to do sound for The Chieftains. I did my first tour with them in the winter of '98.”
TRAVELING LIGHT
After touring the world for decades, The Chieftains are welcomed back to many of the same venues year after year. What the band carries with them for sound depends on where they are. Explains Horton: “We rarely ever carry a console. In the UK we do, and sometimes in Canada we do, and in those countries we also sometimes carry our own P.A., but we go to the same venues in the States so often that we’ve gotten to know the sound companies very well, so we know what to expect. We have great relationships with the sound companies in most major cities, and we get to work in some beautiful halls, like Carnegie Hall in New York. Here in Denver, we usually play the Paramount, and we work with Bret Dowlen from Dowlen Sound, who has done the sound at the Paramount since 1984. He always brings out a Harrison or a Gamble [console] to keep me on my toes. For this Denver show, I’m working with a Harrison SM4. When we carry a console, I like to work with the Midas Heritage 3000.”
Because the band doesn’t carry their own console on their U.S. tours, Horton has become familiar with many different mixing consoles. “You have to make sure you spend enough time with the P.A. [ahead of time], because the band’s soundcheck is so fast that you have to have the P.A. the way you want it or you will get in trouble,” he notes. “I’ve used pretty much every desk that’s out, so that really helps.”
Horton keeps effects to a minimum. “I like all of the Lexicon stuff, and a lot of TC Electronic stuff. The M5000 and the M2000 are both great. You can get by with a Yamaha 990, but it doesn’t sound as rich. As far as effects, I usually go for a nice overall hall sound. A lot of the places we play, the halls sound beautiful already, so if I can get away with it, I don’t use any. Sometimes, I put a little chorus on the harp and the fiddles. Once in a while, I use delay with a guest vocalist, but I try to keep the effects to a minimum to keep that natural sound. Volume is a big issue; you have to keep the volume as low as possible.”
Horton uses little EQ. “I go for an overall hall sound,” he explains. “When I do use EQ, I set it by first playing the Sting CD, Mercury Falling, that I’ve had for years, then fine-tune it with my voice through an SM58, then I do a few more adjustments during soundcheck. The idea with the show is to try and make the people in the audience feel like they are in a living room with the band playing. I try to make it very natural-sounding.”
CHANTER, DRONE AND WHISTLE
The microphone choices and setups are various, reflecting the unusual instrumentation. “Sean’s fiddle has an ATM 35 clipped onto the bridge; it has a gooseneck, and he points it where he wants to,” explains Horton. “With Paddy’s pipes, we usually throw a Shure SM81 right at the chanter to get the best sound, about six to eight inches away. The drone is close-miked with an AKG C408. Paddy also plays his accordion into his pipe mic, and when he plays the whistle, he uses the pipe mic, except for one number when he stands at a vocal mic, a Shure SM58.
“For the flute, Matt plays into an SM58. Derek’s keyboard setup is the most complicated. We have a little Korg XD5; we are taking a stereo feed from it this year. The past few years, we ran a mono signal, but this year, he is using more sounds, so we went with a stereo feed to the DI. Then the promoter provides a Yamaha P200 at every show that we also take a stereo feed directly into a DI. For the grand piano, which is used for Derek’s solo and the finale, we use an AKG 414 over the hammers. The harp has a little AKG 419 inside the bell and pointing at the soundboard. It’s not ideal, but it’s the only way to get it up to volume in the monitors.
“On the bodhrán, we use a Sennheiser 421. Kevin uses three different sizes of drums. We like to have a space heater for the drums, especially if it is moist, to keep the skins tight and in tune. His bodhráns can’t be cranked with an Allen wrench like the newer drums; they are very old- fashioned. When he sings, he is using an SM58. Actually, all the vocal mics are SM58s.”
Because the pipes are naturally tuned to A447, the rest of the band tunes to the pipes. “When I was with Ashley’s band, the A was actually tuned to B to play with Scott’s pipes,” Horton recalls.
In contrast to The Chieftains’ traditional approach to amplifying acoustic instruments, the special guests — fiddler Natalie MacMaster and guitarist Jeff White — avail themselves of technology. “Natalie has an LR Baggs bridge pickup, and she runs that into a Shure wireless unit,” says Horton. “I take a direct XLR from that box into the P.A. Jeff has a pickup, and I also mike Jeff with an SM81.”
STEPPING OUT
The Chieftains like to have stepdancers at each show, and Donny Golden, a champion stepdancer, has toured with them for several years. For the 2002 winter tour, the band also brought two Canadians, Jon and Nathan Pilatzke. “We have Shure SM91s taped down on the stage to pick up Jon and Nathan,” explains Horton. “Sometimes, we use a Crown PCC instead. Donny Golden is wearing a wireless microphone, an inexpensive Shure system. We tape a really cheap omni lavalier from Shure to the sole of his shoe right in front of the heel; because it’s an omni, it picks up both feet really well. We run the wire up his leg, and he clips the unit to his pants.”
The Chieftains typically welcome local musicians to sit in with them during the encore, giving the end of the show the feel of a traditional Irish session in the local pub. Horton doesn’t do anything special for getting the guests in the P.A. “We have a spare vocal mic for the guest singer, and we put that in front of some people, and we might throw down Kevin’s vocal mics. Some years, we had choirs and we had two condenser mics of them, and if it’s friends of the band or name musicians, we might throw out an extra DI or a special mic; but, normally, we don’t bother. It’s just a fun thing for people to get up and play with The Chieftains.”
Essential to a good overall mix is the balance of fiddle and flute. Explains Horton, “Sean’s fiddle is very bright, and Nat’s is a little fatter. When they play together, I pan them slightly to give them their own space; Sean goes left, and Natalie goes right. Her gain is set a lot lower than Sean’s to balance her having a pickup. That’s why I have them play together during soundcheck — to check their levels and make sure both are even and clear in the mix. The real trick is to make sure that you can hear the flute when the fiddles are playing the same line. I know the set, so I know when the fiddles come in and when I will have to turn the flute up or down to compensate. Sometimes when we play outside, it can be difficult to get the volume of the instruments up in the P.A. The louder the show, the more you have to gut the lows. The instruments resonate at those low frequencies, so you end up gutting all the warmth out of the P.A.”
MIXING MONITORS FROM FOH
Horton also runs the monitor setup from FOH, with a little assistance from tour manager Cleland, who did sound for the band before Horton joined. Of the four monitor mixes, the first goes to two outside wedges and is made up of an overall band wash. “It has everything in it except for Kevin’s drum, which is loud enough onstage,” says Horton. Mix two is dedicated to guest singer Alison Moorer and has only her voice and “a lot of the guitar.” Mix three is Kevin Conneff’s bodhrán and vocals mix, and is similar to mix one except that he has his voice very loud in it, along with his drum and lots of guitar. Mix four is the guitarist’s, and is an overall mix with some drum in it.
“For the next tour, I think we are going to get a hot spot monitor for Derek, because he sometimes has trouble hearing the organ,” adds Horton. “The piano has a built-in speaker so it’s fine, but he sometimes has trouble hearing the organ. The harp is in the monitor mix, and he is closer to the monitor when he plays the harp. Derek is brilliant; he could probably do the entire show without hearing anything he plays, but it’s better that he knows what’s going on. I can listen to the mixes on headphones; they aren’t very loud, so we generally don’t run into any feedback problems. If the guys need any more, they signal — Dan is at the side of the stage and he gets me on the radio. They are really very traditional; they barely like having microphones, so they see no need for in-ears [IEMs] or anything fancy as far as the mix.”
Candace Horgan is a freelance writer based out of the Denver area.
Thanks for the help so far.
I got in on the e-bay auction a little too late. Given time I may have been able to outbid the winner of the mic. He paid a bit more than he expected due to my late moment bid. I’ll check around for the availablity of these microphones and watch e-bay.
Thanks again for the advice
Kevin
Kevin, the best type of mic for picking up pipes is a cardioid. Which one depends a lot on your wallet.
The cheapest, most rugged cardioid at a pro level is the Shure SM57. It can be used in the studio, but is almost omnipresent in all clubs. It can be used unbalanced (1/4" phone jack) or balanced (XLR) and best of all for the budget-conscious, it doesn’t require phantom power. The SM57 is intended for acoustic instruments. One step up is the SM58 intended for voice. This is the bottom of the range as fas as price, but certainly not in quality. More expensive mics are available, of course, right up into the thousands, but that is really only for studio stuff, not for travelling or playing in public.
One mic is pointed directly at the chanter from less than a foot away. The second is hung over the drones and regs to pick up both. Be wary of sound techs who want to boost the drones to the point they drown out everything else.
There was an article on the Seattle Pipers’ site (don’t know if its still there - yep, it is) with Eric Rigler where he sescribes his very unique mic set-up: http://www.irishpipersclub.org/newsletteraticleericrigler.htm which just goes to show you there’s many ways to squeeze the bag.
djm
Sorry for a very basic question but can the Sony model mentioned be plugged in to a Dell computer as well as an Archos MPE recorder, or Apple iPod? Thanks.
Pipey, for unbalanced mic connections you can find just about any kind of plug converter you need at Radio Shack - XLR, 1/4" phone jack, RCA jack, miniplug jack, etc.
djm
22 ECM-MS907 out there on eBAY:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=ECM-MS907+
Pipey, I don’t think any mic will work in the iPod, except the Griffon:
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/italk/
and this, by Belkin, which won’t be out for a couple weeks yet:
“Belkin Universal Microphone Adapter, which connects to your iPod
and to any audio microphone with a 3.5mm plug. It attaches to the
iPod with remote/headphone connector, records 16-bit audio at 8KHz,
includes a real-time recording-level LED indicator, can adjust
microphone sensitivity using a 3-level gain switch, and works wtih
iPod software version 2.1 or later. It will begin shipping on March 17
in North America for $40.”
It is not on the Belkin website yet. Still, neither of these are really
any good, as Apple is not interested in allowing concert recording via
the iPod. So, forget about using the iPod.
Really? Why that particular pattern? 
If you were going to be micing for the purpose of sound reinforcement (public address systems and the like) then, ya, cardioid is the way to go. However, it is more important where you aim the back of the mic in that situation. That way your monitors don’t get into the mix and cause feedback.
Sounded like Kevin was trying to get some home recording done on his pc. A specifically unidirectional mic may not be his best bet I think. Going with an omnidirectional or even a figure eight may work better. The omnidirectional will pick up some ambient room sounds (reflections) and make for a less sterile track. The figure eight aimed sideways and placed between the chanter and the drones will give good isolation and get the whole of the instrument in one pass on one track.
I have not found this to be true. A friend of mine who plays trumpet insists on bringing an AKG 414-C (about $1400.00 the last I checked) to every gig. It is a killer mic. Pretty darned tough. Capable of handling EXTREME sound pressure levels. Transparent and able to change its polar patterns. Cardioid, figure-8, Omni. It’s as at home reinforcing sound in a noisy bar as it is picking up the most subtle nuances of an acoustic guitar. I favor the Electrovoice RE-20 for my Trombone. (the standard radio announcer’s mic that really punches up the bottom end)
A few notes on the SMxx mics. They are dynamic mics. A diaphragm has to move a coil past a magnet which creates the current that becomes the signal. This means you have to have pretty high sound levels to drive the mic (i.e. get in close! I play my trombone LOUD only 3-4 inches from an SM57) or preamp the mic. This could introduce noise in the form of ambient ventilation sounds, dirty power, cheap preamps or mixers, etc… Since both the SM57 and SM58 are cardioid mics, they carry a fair amount of proximity effect. The closer you get, the more bass is present in the signal. It is an acoustic anomaly in all cardioid mics. So if you are not going to preamp the mic, you will have to be pretty close to drive the mic which could color the sound with added lows. Too far away and it will be pale and thin.
The Sonys mentioned above do a great job with the MDrecorders… BUT MDrecorders have balanced inputs. (or at least mine does) If you intend to plug these little gems into a sound card, try to be sure that your sound card is equipped with balanced inputs or otherwise your monitor screen will induce a LOT of EM interference into the signal and you will get a very nasty buzz. Which might not be all that bad if it happens be a D. (instant drones 
)
The drawback for these mics is that they only have about a 5-6 foot cord hardwired to the mic. And they are condenser mics so they are much more sensitive than dynamic mics. ( a blessing and a curse ) You stand a fair chance of getting CPU fan noise in the mix if you are plugging direct into the sound card.
Past that, NO E has it down. 3-4 feet from your pipes and you are good to go. I have doubled or trippled that distance direct to MD where the recorder is also setting the recording levels and gotten clean tracks. Play around with it! Have some fun, you’ll find what works for the sound you want… and it aint exactly like your burning audio tape to make it go. 
The thing to remember about audio recording is the time-honored concept of TANSTAAFL (There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) Everything is a trade off. What may be good in some situations may not be in others. And keep in mind that any recording is only going to sound as good as its weakest link. Running a $4000 Neumann u-87 into a crap board is still going to give you a crap track.
Good Luck!
Scott McCallister
Scott, what I was recommending was a cheap ($150) mic that is also good on the road. Sort of a one-time, best bet for the money thing. You make it sound as if one has to be forcing a tuba into it to get any sound - hardly the case. Sure, you can get very good mics (expensive) that require a good (expensive) clean source of power and very quiet (really expensive) mixing board, but for someone who is just plugging into a PC that probably isn’t realistic. I don’t understand the bit about a too-short cable. The Shures I mentioned don’t come with a cable.
djm
Oh! Don’t get me wrong! I own two 57s and a 58. 
They are good mic’s. I suppose I was speaking more to the conditions that need to exist in order to get the best quality of sound from them for recording or sound reinforcement. There are some things to keep an eye on, that’s all. They do much better when preamped or have a lot of sound pumped into them- either by volume or proximity. They just wouldn’t be my first choice to record pipes with, that’s all.
As to the point of the too-short cable, I was referring to the Sony ECM-MS907. Also an impressive mic for less than $100. But it is pretty sensitive, I can get CPU fan noise on my MD recorder with it from about 10-12 feet.
I wasn’t suggesting that Kevin has to take out a second mortgage to finance his sound clips. Just that there are other things to watch for as well. How often have you seen posts on this board where folks are disappointed in their recordings even if they have just gone out and bought a decent mic? :roll:
I’m still curious why a cardioid pattern mic is your preferred weapon of choice for this application. Can you elaborate on that?
Best,
Scott
It all depends on what you want to do and how much time and work you want to invest. The Shures are the best microphones for the road. I have a slight preference for Senheiser SM4xx for musical instruments, but the Shure 58s (especially 58 beta) are unbeatable with voices. Newman has a few nice and not too expensive microphones too. Another one to consider is Shure SM98 (small condenser, cardioid, very good for horns, takes a lot of sound pressure without flinching).
For professional studio recording, you’re usually better off using what they have in the studio, because you probably couldn’t afford to own them!
But for a quick recording job to MD/cassette/DAT or computer, a stereo dual-condenser microphone like the Sony models mentioned above does a great job and produces very life-like results with practically no work or experimentation. It’s good to see that they’re still on eBay. For whatever reason i couldn’t find them yesterday.
Oh and why cardioid? Cardioid is a kind of directional mike, that’s all (the name comes from the fact that when you plot the sensitivity in a polar graph, the resulting picture looks a little bit like a heart). In live performance situations cardioids are ideal because they pick up less noise from behind, and most professional microphones are cardioid. For recording in some situations you may want omnidirectional instead, but as a rule of thumb cardioid will give you better results (less noise). There’s hyper-cardioid too, but it’s generally less useful (it has a tighter angle, but unfortunately it picks up more from the back, so it has more tendency to feedback in live situations).
One more note: if you want to buy a professional microphone, you might want to take your pipes with you to a good music store where they let you try out the different models. Each microphone is subtly different and different microphones cater to different tastes.
g
Glauber, good suggestion. A frequenter of this board, vcolby, spent the better part of a day at one of Toronto’s better pro music shops (Steve’s) and they helped him test multiple mic set-ups to see what would give him the best sound from his UPs. What they came up with was two cardioid mics as in the configuration I mentioned above, though I don’t know what specific models they used.
Scott, the cardioid pattern seems to capture acoustic woodwinds and strings best. I’m not a physicist or engineer, but many of the mic manufacturers’ web sites have enough technical documentation to put me asleep explaining why.
As I recall, Tommy People’s carries around his own C1000 mic. I would just shit if I ever paid that much for a mic and it went missing.
djm
I use two AKG C-3000 B microphones into a Behringer Eurorack MX802A mixer into the line input of my sound card.
That’s about $700 worth of equipment if you buy it new.
Ah, the oldies but goodies… the SM57 and SM58 (which were introduced in 1957 and 1958). Great mics for the $. From Kevin’s intial post, I figured he was looking for a mic to use at home, rather than for concert sound reinforcement.
Speaking of which, there was guy talking about simple, resonably-priced PA systems at the Seattle tionól-- If he’s out there (or other sound gurus) I’d be interested to hear recommendations (I’m talking 2 speakers, 4 to 8 channel board, easily transport, set-up with fairly idiot-proof operation).
Thanks,
No E
I have been thinking about getting the Behringer B300 Ultrawave Active 300 Watt Powered PA Loudspeaker System to add to my preamp/mike setup for a small PA. I have read many good reviews of this amplified speaker.
Precisely my point. Cardioids rock for reinforcement. (no argument there) In recording though you have much more control over your environment sonically to begin with, making other polar patterns as viable.
Is it really necessary to block sound from the back of a mic in a room that’s quiet to begin with? It just seemed peculiar to me to have such a staunch stand on needing a cardioid mic to do some home recording of UPs.
If you are not preamping a dynamic mic,(probably the case if plugging an SMxx direct into a sound card) the best result is when the sound is coming all from one place. i.e. the bell of a trombone, or singers mouth so the sound can be focused close in (a couple of inches) on the cell in the mic. Since it is cardioid, the mic will pick up what is directly in front of it very well; the trade off is that there will be some proximity effect and there will be coloration to the sound.
I haven’t measured but I would hazard a guess that from the back d on my chanter to the port on my bass drone return is probably about 2-2.5 feet when I play. I think that is too-wide a field to effectively drive an un-preamped dynamic mic. So, even if it was a cardioid mic, I would want a condenser rather than a dynamic mic. The sensitivity of a dynamic mic will allow the it to be placed several feet from the pipes and thus achieve a more even capture of the instrument acoustically. But even with a condenser mic, I’m not positive I would be compelled to be sure it had a cardioid pattern for this application. It just depends on what I would like to capture.
Best!
Scott
I asked the UP mailing list about mics and they also recommended the little Sony ECM. The cord is too short; I bought another cord which extends the length. Huh! I can’t hear my CPU or case fans on the recordings I’ve made, although occasionally a fart, sniffle, or exclamation of disgust shows up.
I set the mic a bit to my right, too. Picks up the buzz from the drones a bit better. I might plug in another mic and try to get a bit more of the tone in there. For mic stands I use tea tins, coffee cups, filing cabinet drawers.