All,
The other day I was talking to someone about a Prowse. They told me that the Prowse was more balanced than a Pratten and richer than a Rudall. I was wondering if we could discuss that. I have only played a Pratten and Rudall copy, and have never heard a Prowse so I’m extremely curious.
Cheers,
Grixxly
There are 4 distinct types of Prowse flutes, that I am aware of.
The ones made at Clementi & Co (the Nicholson Improved) made by Tho. Prowse Sr.
The ones made by Tho. Prowse Sr. (also Nicholson’s Improved) made on his own under his name (with a beautifully flowing script stamp as the maker’s mark).
The ones made by Tho. Prowse Jr. (the son of…and at the end of the Nicholson Improved era).
The ones made by Keith, Prowse & Co (no relation) that you can read about on Terry McGee’s website at:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/KProwse.htm
I’ve never played the last, but will when I visit with a friend next week in Iowa. He owns a Keith/Prowse flute, so I can post impressions after that.
I own Clementi-Nicholson (made by Prowse) #315 and it’s an exceptional flute. Terrific color of tone, excellent volume. Everyone who’s played this flute (Don Lambert on this board among them) always comments about it. It’s a lovely flute. Unique to Prowse (I believe) was his use of ivory under the silver rings to shore up the sockets. Very nice touch that he kept with his own named flutes. It also has the ergonomic cut-aways that I appreciate so much, as well as the flattened top to RH1&2. Very comfy on the hands. I’ve allowed John Gallagher to measure this flute with the idea to replicate it. The embouchure on it is one of the best I’ve ever played.
I owned a Prowse flute (Hanaway marking) that was a unique 5-key, #3800-series. I sold it a few years ago to professional flute player Cristel Rice-Astin and she’s used it to record with the likes of Tony DiMarco, and Michael Copeland apparently had great things to say about it. She also tells a story of Matt Molloy playing it, but I wasn’t there. Anyway, I found it a good flute. However, it did not have the ergonomic features that Prowse was known for.
I played another Prowse Sr. (and did some crack repair work on), owned by a flute player from England named Mick Sands when he lived briefly in Denver a couple years ago. A neat flute player indeed (and overall musician, not to mention an incredible sean-nos singer!), it was a great flute of terrific tone and color. It had the ergonomic features on it. I don’t recall the serial number.
I’ve played Prowse Jr. flutes and found them as good as his father’s. Andrew on this board has said (if I recall correctly) that he prefers the workmanship of Jr. to Sr. While I don’t ascribe to that, it does show Jr. has his benefactors, so he must have had quite a few then as well.
There’s a Prowse Sr. flute available currently from a dealer that I am aware of. If you are interested, message me privately and I can put you in that direction. But as I recall, he wanted a good deal of money and I thought it overpriced at @3500 Euro (@ $4,250 US).
Here’s the seller’s description of that flute:
I’m not sure if 452 is the head all the way closed.
My clementi is pulled out a good deal (3/4") but is at 440 nicely, for what it’s worth.
Hope this helps!
Dave M.
Now that you’ve been back a while, Dave, I think you should redo your avatar.
Unless you LIKE being the X. 
Stuart
X indeed!
Dave,
If I can ever save up enough and pry it from your fingers there is a Siccima that would come first. 
Cheers,
Tony
Ah, yes…a DANDY flute indeed.
I took it into studio the other night, played it against a singer’s voice (female). Wow. Right on in intonation and pitch. As expected.
That Siccama and co-hort Hudson knew what they were doing!
dave m
David might tell us something about Joseph Prowse ,Old Jewry , London (according to Langwill ), who stamped his flutes " from Clementi & Co "
I have always had my doubts about him .
I believe that Thomas Prowse Jnr also sometimes used the " from Clementi & Co "stamp .
Indeed it would be helpful for David to tell us how he distinguishes between the flutes of father and son , especially as he has told us on another occasion that Prowse Snr flutes are better , and Jnr couldn’t play the flute .He certainly couldn’t run a business, according to his contemporaries .
I can find no evidence of Snr working after 1821 .Too early , I would have thaught to have made the flute ,3685 ,was it ? currently on offer .
( It would be rather strange if it was rosewood ! ) . Such a late number suggests Jnr ,especially if you look at his numbers in the Dayton Miller collection of flutes from Jnr’s "Nicholson Manufactory ".
I would be surprised ,too if Prowse Snr ever made flutes pitched at A = 452 .
While you are " there " look at No 0246 reputed to have been played by Nicholson and No 1265 which is the very fancy Nicholson persentation flute made by Thomas Prowse Jnr .
Mr Wilkes tells me he has never come across a Prowse which works well without substantial modification ,but David will disagree , no doubt .
Indeed he is just finishing his Prowse Jnr and mine which now work very well after a massive effort on his part .
I hope that David will be able to explain the very curious nature of the cutting of the G# and A holes which I have only today been discussing with Mr W. and the splendid Terry MacGee.
Exceptional and Fascinating details, Mr. KIA!
Many, many thanks from us all!
Don’t be too shy to tell us something useful , David for the benefit of your " straight Man" Grixxly . I am sure you have the information in your private files .
( And who are you to talk for " All of us " ? )
It may be that over there there are people who do not know the commonplace stuff you have treated us to ,but it would be helpful for those with a genuine interest ,Eilam , for example , (who still finds it in his heart to try to support you ), for you to give us new interesting insights and information.
Please tell us more .
Mr. KIA:
I’m not going into your sewer any more, KIA.
Rather than kick the bully’s ass in order to teach him a lesson, most times it’s just better to ignore him.
So…
You were quite nice and civilised last night in your private Emails, dear David .Didn’t last long unfortunately .I suppose we all revert to our basic natures before long . Others will judge .They are not all daft over there by any means !
I don’t particularly appreciate that. I am thinking of having another flute made and am curious about the Prowse “model”. I am NOT interested in watching you two snipe at each other. If you don’t have anything other than loaded questions to ask in this thread, please refrane from taking it over as another round of your ongoing battle.
Regards,
Tony
Grixxly , I am sorry if you were not helped by my contribution .I don’t claim to know much , but I do claim that Mr Wilkes knows a lot more than most.And particularly more than those who have never tried to correct the internal vagaries of Prowse flutes ,even if they could .
It seems that how flutes sound tend to be more a matter of the particular workmanship .There are few reputable violin dealers (if that is not a contradiction in terms ) who would dream of telling a customer how an instrument sounds .They leave it to the customer to see what they can do on the instrument . Rudalls and Prattens and the copies of each seem to vary widely from individual flute to flute .I wonder how many people selling " Rudall " copies have made any study in depth of the originals in chambering and other internal features .Remember too that these things were made by a variety of people over a long period .Unfortunately even those people who regard themselves as experts can’t tell us much about who actually made a particular old flute, even though marketed by D’Almaine ,or Rudall & Rose, or whoever .A violin expert will tend to know at a glance who is likely to have made a particular instrument , and it’s a much more complex field .
Mr Wilkes thinks that unimproved Prowse flutes are poor . I can’t say .Perhaps supposed copies are better .If the maker is better than the Prowses they might be .
I TOTALLY agree, Tony!
I was happy to help you. And I tried.
I tried to give you a player’s perspective on the flutes I have played and own. They are good flutes. I really thought I was adding something valuable to your quest for info. You’ll note that my submission was specifically geared to you, as a player, and not filled with technical garbage about stamps and addresses and dates and locations that have NOTHING to do with what you asked: How does the Prowse flute PLAY compared to Pratten and Rudall.
I am unaware whether anyone other than Patrick Olwell – one of the finest flutemakers in the world today – offers a model specifically dubbed “Nicholson.” If I’m wrong about that, then someone will correct me, no doubt.
The Nicholson model was Prowse (w/ or w/o Clementi stamp doesn’t seem to matter). How closely Olwell’s matches that I cannot say.
Again, as I noted earlier…I hope this helps.
I am really sorry that others on the board really want to drag this into the muck.
For whatever their motivations, I will not allow that to happen.
I may be new to this board, but after spending many days re-reading the posts to see if I can learn something, it appears to me that all andrew ever does is claim to know everything. Or at least he’s first in line to correct someone else!
It is also tiring to continually read andrew proclaiming Wilkes as the best the world has known. He’s a good flutemaker, yes, but isn’t andrew being closed to the greatness of the other makers, too? It sure appears to be.
Also, how is it that andrew can know so much, but continuously refer to Wilkes as the source? All his posts seem to read this way. That makes for awfully narrow thinking, doesn’t it?
It’s also very funny how Mr. Wilkes seems to speak through only andrew’s mouth? I’d prefer to hear it directly from the source!
That’s not really true, from my varied conversations with flutemakers. I am on the search for a good, authentic Pratten flute. I have spent many hours talking with many makers about this and all say most of the Pratten simple-system flutes do not vary from each very much. John Gallagher noted that measurements he took from the Hudson Pratten that Mr. Migoya owns are nearly identical to the Boosey Pratten he measured that was made many years later.
Rudalls however do indeed vary from each other. That’s why it is so prized to own one that is a good one!
I don’t like tirades and this is really a put off, mostly because of andrew. Mr. Migoya seems to try to help, but then is dumb enough to fall into it each time Mr. andrew pokes a stick at him.
If someone took Mr. andrew’s stick away, would we even be reading this?
Sorry. I didn’t mean to “come out” this way. Back to lurk-read mode!
Trying not to side-track the thread, but you might consider a Hammy. From what I understand Hammy sticks very closely to the Pratten design.
Cheers,
Tony
From a player rather than collectors standpoint, how do you find them compared to other models of the era?
Why doe’s Mr Wilkes need to have a “substantialy modified” Prowse flute to play on?
I don’t feel it makes much sense to talk of a Prowse model ,as so many of them are really variations on the Nicholson model .
Mr Wilkes does not need an improved Prowse to play on .If he gets bored with the ones he usually plays he has plenty more around .
Having the Prowse flute he wished it to work well one imagines .Is there anything odd about that ? He might wish to sell it sometime . ( Perhaps he does now ! ).
Like other old flutes they can often be improved in intonation and performance by somebody who will spend the time and knows how !
I guess that many 170 year old flutes have changed since they left the maker’s hands ( shrinkage etc ) and fashions have changed .I believe that joint lengths can benefit from adjustment .
I think that Prowse Jnr flutes like Monzanis are particularly nice in outside workmanship , but it does not mean they work ,though some do . I am not too sure if collectors of such things prefer flutes with all the original faults and others which have developed to something which works well .
I talked to a chap only yesterday who has a Prowse Jnr in very good condition which he thinks needs doing ( Though he concedes that he might need adjustment himself ).
I find ,when comparing old flutes with new very few of the old ones really are up to modern standards .It’s all a matter of taste and who is playing them I suppose . As regards judgeing of flutes it is necessary perhaps to have an idea who made them before comparing .The stamps are little use ,I reckon .The various makers bought so much in ,and there seems to be very little knowledge about who worked for whom at different times .D’Almaine I think it was had 120 variations in his catalogue at a time .He is unlikely to have made many himself .Only a fool would seek to generalise about his ouput ,say without trying to identify the actual maker first .
I find I like my Potters best ( some days ! ) and my new keyless . Graham Farr has a Prowse / Wilkes .Ask him how he likes it .
Except rudimentary English grammar. I’m afraid credibility suffers when a gentleman who claims to be English (and a student of law to boot) consistently fails to put a simple punctuation mark in the right place. Children of five can manage it. So too can those for whom English is a foreign language.