just in case anybody is looking,i have a gorgeous cocuswood boosey pratten flute offered for sale on ebay.item no.7324997254.extensively refurbished by chris wilkes,check it out!please contact me via ebay or directly!NOT through this forum<thanks!
Call me a snob, but I have a really hard time trusting people who don’t know how to use the key.
That said, the flute is quite attractive, and the seller seems to have a lot of positive feedback.
Looks nice! If only… :roll:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324997254
I’m trying to learn more about this flute…
but the ad says it’s a “Pratten System” which any 8key flute cannot be.
The ad does not say that the flute is stamped specifically “R.S. Pratten’s Perfected”
That makes me leery.
The foot keys are pads, not pewter plugs. That’s not quite what the Pratten flutes were. Maybe it was for the later Boosey & Co flutes, but not the “Pratten’s Perfected” flutes. I don’t think so , anyway.
Another clue that it’s not a real PRatten:
The ad says “THE FLUTE HAS THE POWERFUL RICH TONE ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRATTEN SYSTEM”
I believe this is a plain ole band flute in D…that’s it.
Just thought I’d point these minor, but important, issues out to all.
If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. If not, thought you all ought to know some things worth asking about.
I am NOT bidding on this flute, so don’t anyone start thinking I’m trying to drive people away to keep the price down. I don’t work that way.
dm
ps>…as I recall, PayPal specifically forbids this practice (although I might be wrong…but I don’t recall that this is okay)…
“I WILL ACCEPT PAYPAL OR VISA / MASTERCARD ON BEHALF OF THE SELLER FROM OVERSEAS CUSTOMERS AS LONG AS THE BUYER PAYS THE CHARGES WHICH IS BETWEEN 2.5 AND 4% DEPENDING ON WHICH METHOD YOU CHOOSE.”
For ebay auctions it does.
That’s funny.
Here’s what eBay rules say about it specifically:
eBay prohibits surcharging by sellers except where described below. Surcharging occurs when sellers pass the charges they incur for using eBay or third party services such as payment services onto buyers
…
Specific examples are explained below for your guidance:
- Electronic Money Services: Sellers who accept electronic money services as a means of payment for an item purchased on eBay, may not impose a surcharge.
Electronic money services include, but are not limited to, services such as PayPal, Nochex, FastPay or Moneybookers.
It IS allowed when the seller accepts – directly – credit card payment (but not via PayPal):
These sellers may not pass on to the buyer a charge greater than the amount of the commission payable by the seller to the bank processing that credit or debit card payment. In other words, sellers may recoup the charges incurred as a direct consequence of accepting the credit or debit card, but no more.
…
again, just trying to educate and keep everyone on top of the game.
anyway…
no need to keep this going.
Just good consumer information for everyone.
and Damian…
shall I note that your initial posting at the top of this thread says:
“i have a gorgeous cocuswood boosey pratten flute offered for sale”
Not: a Pratten-LIKE flute
A boosey Pratten flute is clearly, in the proper nomenclature, an RSPratten’s Perfected flute.
This is a band flute.
Say it that way.
David,For anyone who takes the time to read the full description on ebay I clearly state that this is a Boosey Pratten SYSTEM flute.How else would you suggest i describe this flutes design?Single centre section,large tone holes,wider bore.In fact virtually identical in basic design to a boosey stamped Prattens Perfected.I apologise to anyone who has followed this link in search of a Prattens Perfected but still maintain that this is a quality instrument in exceptionaly good condition and whoever ends up owning it will definately not be dissapointed! Damian Thompson
It’s still misleading.
And your ebay auction is very hard to read. Don’t type everything capitalized.
Damian
It should not be for us to take the time…
but for you to take care.
May I suggest this as your ad:
This is a wonderfully-playing Boosey & Co. 8key flute in the Pratten tradition. It is not, however, an RS Pratten’s Perfected flute, as the company made for many years. But, it does play very well after all the hard work put into it by master craftsman Chris Wilkes.
While it is likely a band flute of the late 1800s or early 1900s, its quite difficult to tell the difference (if this is true) from the earlier Boosey flutes that were Pratten designs.
Here’s a chance to get a Pratten-like flute without having to pay the extra dough for a flute that is stamped “Pratten.”
You won’t be disappointed.
There…
now that seems to accomplish precisely what you were after without misleading anyone into thinking anything.
I hope it sells for an acceptable price, Damian.
It does seem to be a nice flute for what should be a fair and reasonable price.
dm
David,Point taken.I hope that we can end these exchanges on a positive note.I accept that I could have worded the ad differently but I,and others have been innocently referring to this flute as a Boosey Pratten for years,in the same way you might refer to an Olwell Pratten or a Wilkes Pratten except that Boosey & co had that absolutely firm connection with the direct manufacture of Pratten flutes over an extended period.I clearly state on ebay what is stamped on the flute and make no false claims whatsoever as far as I am concerned.Possibly it was a band flute,as you put it,possibly not.I have played this flute alongside Prattens Perfected models and found the similarity of measurements so close that you can actually interchange the different sections directly.Anyway,this is my first delve into the cyber flute community and have quickly learnt that the level of scrutiny and preciseness over worded descriptions is intense.Fair enough,there are too many con merchants out there already.Apologies again to anyone who felt misled,that was never my honest intention.Will be glad when I can switch off this computer and go back to simpler pleasures,like sitting on my boat,playing the flute! Good Luck, Damian
I’m glad you took the point in the manner it was intended: to be helpful.
As a long-time collector and player, I have to say there are many inaccuracies in descriptions (the auction houses in the UK haven’t yet figured that cocus and rosewood are not the same thing!). As such, the learned eye can pick them out and often get a great deal. The untrained eye can fall into a problem and that leads to great animosity.
This exchange is mild compared to what could have transpired had someone purchased your flute (I’d still change the ad, but that’s my opinion…or at the least email the top bidders and clarify to them so they aren’t of the wrong opinion) under the misconception we speak of here.
I think today’s makers suggest their flutes are modeled after the great makers. So it would be an Olwell Rudall in the sense of it being patterned (but not an exact replica) of that flute. Seeing as RR flutes varied so much, it’s more a model on that ONE specific flute measured (or in Pat’s case, several) rather than anything else.
Very confusing nomenclature we’ve cornered ourselves into using.
For me it’s a maze, but I can navigate it. I can’t imagine the difficulty for a new player delving into the purchase of a flute. It must be maddening!
dm
Another clue that it’s not a real PRatten:
the ad says “THE FLUTE HAS THE POWERFUL RICH TONE ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRATTEN SYSTEM”I believe this is a plain ole band flute in D…that’s it.
Just thought I’d point these minor, but important, issues out to all.
If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. If not, thought you all ought to know some things worth asking about.
I am NOT bidding on this flute, so don’t anyone start thinking I’m trying to drive people away to keep the price down. I don’t work that way.
dm
As I understand it Pratten system started with the 8 key design and then the term Pratten system was used (stamped) on a whole range of systems including 12 and fourteen key.
I think the later flutes were not stamped Pratten because the term had been in use for about fifty years on various systems and become slightly vague. Maybe if it there was a patent it had run out.
I think these later 8 key Bosseys used the same design as the earlier mid 1800’s Pratten 8 keys. (foot key changes excepted). I would have thought they are still Prattens even though the stamp was not used.
Am I missing some ‘important issues’; what are they?
Kevin
I think that is correct - the highest number Boosey flute stamped “Pratten’s Perfected” I can remember off-hand is just over No 10,000. Anyone have records of a higher number?
Damian’s friend’s flute at 15,000 odd is from around 1895, poor old Sid had been dead some 27 years, so I can imagine a lot of the magic had worn off the name by then. “So who’se this Mistah Pratten when 'e’s at home then, eh?”
Interesting to note that the name Pratten’s Perfected doesn’t ever seem to show up in the factory records - to the boys out there they were just “concert flute, n keys, cone/cyl, cocus/ebonite”. Occasionally also H.P., F.P. or I.P. (high pitch, French pitch, international pitch, and 8g.s.k.k (8 German Silver Keys on Knobs). Plus a few odd letters sometimes that I haven’t been able to decipher, eg N.M. and N.Y. I wondered if N.M. meant Not Marked (ie the makers mark left off to enable a dealer to affix theirs. But N.Y.? Did they have a New York branch?
Now it would be interesting to see what changes had been made in the 40 odd years since the design came out. Do you still have access to the flute, Damian - could we press you for a few dimensions? A good starting point would be the distance between the middle of the L1 hole (c#) and the middle of the Eb key. That should tell us if they had done any rescaling. And if you have access to some calipers, the diameter of the bore at the lower end of the body, and the diameter of hole 5.
Terry
Hello Terry and all
I’ve a late Boosey 8 key No. 19334 which I would consider a Pratten system. It might suit for the comparison.
Middle of LH1 (c#) to middle of Eb hole = please see next post
Diameter of bore at bottom of body joint = 13.4mm
Diameter of bore at bottom of foot joint = 13.5mm
Diameter of hole 5 (RH2 2nd from bottom) =10.67mm
One change that which I am aware of is that it has a slightly smaller embouchure than normal at 10.43 x 11.75 mm and a shorter head joint to match tuning wise; 90mm centre of embouchure to bottom end of head joint.
I’ve also a late Hawkes & Son 8 key Pratten system no.6984
Middle of LH1 (c#) to middle of Eb hole = please see next post
Diameter of bore at bottom of body joint =13.1mm
Diameter of bore at bottom of foot joint =12.27mm
Diameter of hole 5 (RH2 2nd from bottom) =11.3mm
This has a longer headjoint; 101mm centre of embouchure to bottom end of headjoint. Also a bigger embouchure 10.71 x 12.40 mm
All the best
Kevin
15 August 2005 edited hole diameters as there was a fault with vernier which has now been sorted
Please excuse my mistake in the previous post I wasn’t watching what I was doing and measured to the Fnat hole not the Eb. The corrected measurements are :
C# to Eb centres is 248mm for the Hawkes and son
C# to Eb centres is 244.5mm for the Boosey
Thanks to Terry for pointing out my error.
All the best
Kevin
OK, on those few points, seems like not very much has changed, except they dropped the name Prattens. I’d estimate that flute was made in about 1910, so Mr Pratten had been seriously dead over 40 years. That tends to reduce your marketability.
To my mind the original Prattens play most accurately at about 445 Hz, possibly aimed at Society of Arts Pitch (444Hz), or possibly at a compromise between domestic pitch and high pitch (430 and 452-455Hz).
Given its slightly longer C#-Eb length, the Hawkes appears to be aimed at about 440Hz or just under. This would seem likely, as they were a much later entrant into the flute field, by which time high pitch was only used in military bands.
Note that the Prattens has the larger bore (initiated by Siccama), while Hawkes’ bore lies somewhere between that of Prattens and Rudalls. That alone makes them of interest. I must get around to making one some day! I could market it as “for the indecisive”, or “an ideal gift for the player who has everything (else)”!
Terry
David Migoya, I think you handled this thread beautifully.
Interesting.
I had wondered if Hawkes flutes were the same design as Pratten system flutes.
I’ve only recently started ‘playing in’ the Hawkes. Slowly re-hydrating it. The previous owner played it but not very regularly I think. It seems to be very good. It will be interesting to see if it has a slightly more Rudall feel to it than Pratten flutes.
I think one aspect of the Hawkes that is an advantage over older types is the Boehm style low c / c# keys.
Kevin