first… yup, i’m a newbie to the forum and to flutes, so i beg your indulgence up front…
I recently purchased a Seery large hole Pratten. (I love it.) I also had a friend leave in my possession (for awhile, anyway) a early 20th C. German 8-key. To my ear, the Seery has a much better tone. Currently, I am able to play from D4 to G#6 on the Seery. The A6 is close. And a couple of the accidentals (esp F6) are pretty weak.
I said all that to say this… I have noticed that virtually none of the fingering charts that I can find seem to apply to my Seery, particularly in the upper octaves. Using a microphone and tuner, I have been able to come up with fingerings that, by and large, are spot on. But, as I noted, the A6 and above seem to be a bit elusive. Is there, somewhere out there, a fingering chart for the Seery large hole Pratten, or is it more common for each player to figure out the fingerings for his/her own flute with its unique quirks?
No offense, but why would you want to play any higher than D6 on a wooden flute? Most people don’t. Usually the repertoire that is played on the simple system flute doesn’t require it either. Most tunes fit comfortably between D4 and B5.
Most keyless flutes finger the same; unfortunately most charts for flutes are for those with keys. There’s a whistle chart somewhere that’s good for keyless flutes; I think the link has been posted here in the last week or two.
For the most part the third octave goes like:
D: OXX OOO or OXX XXX
E: XXO XXO; sometimes XXO OXX
(You might be able to get an Eflat with XXX OXX)
F#: XOX XOX or XOX XXX – it’s the note that varies the most, you might have to experiment
G: XOX OOO
A: OXX XXO
Seerys are optimized and made for Irish music, which means the holes have not been sized and placed with the third octave in mind. So you’re not likely to find a chard specifically for Seerys in the third octave.
Woops, just noticed that you’re not specially interested in irish music. In that case, as chas says, just consider that the maker of the instrument wasn’t particularly interested in having the 3rd register sound properly. My apologies for the snarky remark.
We had a thread specifically about 3rd 8ve fingerings on Seery keyless Pratten model flutes sometime last year - Talasiga was the originator, if memory serves. I and some others did a bit of experimenting - it’s out there somewhere. (HERE, actually - I found it! - should give you all you could wish for except a workable Fnat’‘’/6.)
As Terry says, most fingering charts, especially period ones, are for standard 8-key flutes, not the modern keyless simplified derivatives. Without the keys to assist upper harmonics with appropriate venting, many 3rd 8ve notes are tricky, or in some cases virtually unattainable, though some are straightforward enough. I don’t think any medium-to-wide bore keyless flute will go readily above 3rd 8ve A (A6), though with strong, flexible and practiced embouchure, you may be able to zone in on some of the higher notes, but probably not a full diatonic scale, let alone a chromatic one. The tool for that is a keyed flute. Even the relatively narrow bored Renaissance flute didn’t really go above A’‘’/6, nor did the Baroque traverso, save for the occasional special effect. Even when you have the notes, the complex cross fingerings and embouchure adjustments would demand huge amounts of practice to play sequentially with any fluency - more even than the 8-key itself - other than to hit the occasional high leap. Possible, but some challenge! As has also been said, these flutes simply weren’t designed to be used that way - they’d have at least an Eb key if they had been.
Thank you, everybody. I cannot express my gratitude at your responses (even yours, Tirno.) I will sum up…
I realized when purchasing the Seery that it was intended for ITM, but I love the sound of the keyless and felt there are more applications than just ITM. Thinking that, I have approached the keyless not from the aspect of… “Gee, it’s made for ITM so I can’t do that.” but rather from the perspective of… “Dang! What a beautiful piece. How long will it take to learn it on my flute? What will I have to learn to make it work?” An instument is limited only by the imagination of the user… do ya think Stradivari had Charlie Daniels in mind? Do ya think Boehm was thinking of Greg Pattillo (the beatbox flute player?)
Tirno: Apology accepted. Not much offense taken from snarky remark. There are several reasons why I want to go that high: 1) I don’t play ITM, so I am not playing the “usual” repertoire; 2) I play several variations of violin pieces that take me well above D6; 3) The instrument is capable of going there. I wish to go there. Perhaps in the future you will reserve judgmental responses and just provide information… if you know it.
Charlie: Thank you for your informative response. I’ve gotten the Eb using xxo xxx and oxo oox. I will give a go the A fingering you have kindly provided. Thank you, again.
Terry: Thank you! It is an honor to correspond with you. I have spent many hours your site. I cannot thank you enough for all the effort you have put into this passion. I have indeed visited the Pratten Perfected chart at your site and it is marked. Thank you! I will be at your site often while I debate which keyed to buy.
Jem: Thank you! The link to the earlier thread was exactly what I was seeking. I feel a certain amount of relief to learn that virtually all of the fingerings you have provided are fingerings that I found on my own out on the porch. Especially the C, C# and D fingerings of oxx xxo, oxx xoo and oxx ooo. Like you, I have found F to be highly elusive, but i’ve not given up yet. (i’m either stubborn or stupid.)
I acquired my flutes to play ITM, but as I get more proficient, I have become interested in the higher notes. It’s nice to be able to jump up the octave in an air or playing harmony behind another instrument. So far I can handle up to the G, but it comes and goes. I can’t find a F# that works on my keyless flute, but I have Terry’s chart and I can find some of the notes on my 6-key.
It certainly helps improve the 2nd octave by working on the 3rd!
Terry’s charts (and I mean NO disrespect) are not in my experience the best ones available - they may be the best for his own flutes, but I haven’t had the good fortune to try one of those! For keyed flutes, Rick Wilson’s composite chart offers a very thorough selection of the multifarious possibilities for the 3rd octave (IMO it is the best chart readily available) - and there are even more for some notes in Rockstro, though less accessibly laid out.
As for the keyless modern ITM flute, the suggestions we jointly cme up with on the thread I linked above (have you tried them?) would seem a good place to start.
There really shouldn’t be any problem with 3rd 8ve F# - it is the 4th harmonic of the fundamental D and can be obtained by over blowing up the harmonic series on the 6-finger note xxx xxx - but it will be flat that way and needs assistance from venting at least R2 and on some flutes L2 as well, thus xxx xox or xox xox. It is 3rd 8ve F natural that is the big problem in the absence of either or both of an Eb and an F natural key.
I’ve just been briefly experimenting on my low whistle (to hand by the computer) and can get a tolerable 3rd 8ve F nat by using the high E fingering xxo xxo or xxo oxx and half-holing L2. Half holing R2 may also offer something.
Jumbuck: thank you for bringing us (me) back on topic. The only f#‘’’ that is dead on for me so far is xxx xox. It seems to me that the f# requires a much more focused airstream than does the e’‘’ or d’‘’. It seems to be the “turning point” , if you will, for the third 8ve.
Chas: I have actually had some luck with the 3rd 8ve Fnat with xoo oox, but it isn’t solid and it gets away often. I will give half holing the F# a shot.
Jem: I did indeed take your suggestions to the flute last night. the a’‘’ was dead on! thank you. I haven’t had need of the Bb, B, or C yet. But I will start incorporating them in my practice immediately. Again, thank you very much.
I thank each of you for taking the time to respond to this post. I appreciate your time and effort.
