noob question about articulation...

Whistle
1

… let me start by saying that i did a search of all topic titles containing the word “cut” and read through every single post. i would also like to say that i realize that “articulation” or “ornamentation” is a really touch subject for some. i have no desire to trod upon anybody’s musical toes, or to be the cause of somebody else trodding about… that said…

i am really new to the whistle. i’ve only been at it about a year, and i’ve finally decided to try to learn a jig. i have chosen the kesh as my first victim. having played folk music for close to 30 years, i understand (and really appreciate) that songs and tunes tend to take on a life of their own and have variations from one played version to the next or from one printed version to the next. i have found several recorded and printed versions of the kesh, and all are like enough that it really doesn’t perplex me much. however…

some of the versions start right off with a tap followed by a roll, others differentiate (i’ve mangled that word, haven’t i?) the notes of the first measure by actually changing notes… so… i am working on the tune and coming to a point where i kinda like how it sounds, and it doesn’t seem to commit too great a travesty on ITM… but in experimenting with articulation i stumbled on something that i have to believe every whistle player also stumbles on (and i think i read in a post by Riverman that he used this at one time)… that is…

articulating by virtue of a “cut” motion on the note being played/articulated… that is to say… "cutting an A with an A, or an E with an E and so on… sometimes i cut using the note immediately above the note played… sometimes i cut with a note a bit higher… sometimes with the note itself… (the fingers on my left hand are not as “articulate” as they could be and do not react as well as they did when i was much younger…

so, here i am practicing at home and cutting the note with the note itself (especially with the top (left) hand) and finding that the audible difference is not huge… it still seems to let me do a roll… it still articulates the notes…

can i get some input from folks here (especially the more experienced players) with regard to this apparently very unorthodox and rarely mentioned articulation method? why is it not seen much? why is it so apparently unorthodox? are there advantages to it? are there huge limitations to it? are there reasons why it should not be used? are there reasons why it should be used? and… how come nobody mentions this type of articulation in the tutorials i’ve seen thus far (larsen, mccullough, bro steve, whistletutor, and others)

all thanks in advance. i appreciate your help and insight. (with your help i will be less and less stupid and noobish with the passage of time until i reach the point where i am only mildly annoying and dense. :smiley: )

be well,

jim

2

Well, since no one else has jumped in yet …

There was a recent thread on this topic. Here’s what I had to say: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/cuts-what-fingering-do-you-use/61253/3

I do assume you mean fingers, not notes. That is, cutting E with the E finger (B2), which gives a cut note of F#. Or cutting A with the A finger (T2), which gives a cut note of B. You can’t really cut a note with itself.

Anyway, what you describe isn’t really unorthodox (is there orthodoxy in ITM?). It’s just not preferred. Remember that a cut is just an interruption of the tone by a momentary, higher-pitched blip. Any fingering that accomplishes that is “legal”, and may be used sometimes by someone. But as I said in the earlier topic, cutting with the same finger gives a less distinct blip (I call it a flip instead of cut). So cutting with T1 and T3, or with the note above (Larsen style) is preferred. If you find “the audible difference is not huge”, then consider that the difference may be in the subtleties that are audible to more experienced players, but not yet to you. Also, a non-standard technique that sounds OK on one whistle may not sound good on another. Training yourself to bad habits - or prematurely to advanced habits - is not a good idea, even if you’re not ready to appreciate the difference.

For example, one of the real dangers of doing what you describe is that if you’re timing is off, you’ll produce a classical mordent instead of a cut, and a classical turn instead of a roll. Either of which is a real “Mark of the N00b”, and can be partly avoided by playing real cuts.

Of course, B is always cut with the same T1 finger, because you have no choice. And I admit I usually cut G with T3, for mechanical reasons, but am equally comfortable using T1 or T2 when it sounds better or the melody suggests it.

As for why flips aren’t mentioned in the beginners tutorials you mentioned. Maybe because they’re beginners tutorials. :slight_smile: It’s better to start with one tried and true technique, and learn it well. There’s usually a reason. But experienced players may use a variety of different fingerings and techniques instead.

That’s my POV anyway. Hope that helps …

3

Yes, subtle differences do tend to add up, even if the listener can’t put her finger
on why this whistling sounds better.

I try to cut on the highest note that is responsive enough, relative to the note I’m cutting.
So on E I will raise/lower G. Same goes for rolls on E, naturally. Brad Hurley, on flute, on E
raises/lowers G and A simultaneously. This on flute but I think it works on whistle.
Rolls this way sound very nice, but I haven’t quite got them down.

Here I do not follow Grey’s instructions, though I have great regard for him
as a teacher.

I confess that I don’t much like the Kesh jig, which involves a great deal of ornamentation
for little musical profit–my subjective and doubtless
mistaken opinion. I dont’ think i’ve ever quite mastered it,
because I really don’t like playing it.

There are very beautiful jigs–jigs aren’t necessarily in your face–
and personally I would start with something that moved me.
But there’s no question that the Kesh is a place many people
do start.

4

thank you very much, MTGuru! and, yes, you assumed correctly… i poorly described what i was doing but you are absolutely correct… my question was indeed about “cutting” the note produced by xxx/ooo by lifting and replacing T3. (which i henceforth refer to as a “flip”.)

i understand your answer completely. it was the response for which i was hoping. as i said, there is a difference, but it wasn’t a huge difference. it was a subtle, but noticeable difference. perhaps in another 10 or 15 years i will be able to better discern.

i have been working on doing cuts using the two main methods that i’ve seen often discussed here… using T1 or T3… and Larsen’s recommendation. really seems to be a hot button for some folks.

i seem to have several “cut challenged” fingers that are protesting the brain input of “don’t go far and get right back on the hole!” so, as a result, my playing of the kesh is very slow. but, i’d rather play it slow and correctly this year with practice leading to at speed and correctly next year than to play it at speed and poorly forever.

again, thank you very much for your help.

be well,

jim

5

Someone said here long ago that her teacher had told her that a successful cut
sounds like a barking dog. This helped me a good deal. Also it’s helpful to practice
cuts alone, outside any tune. A few minutes practice each practice session can really help.

Ornamentation is probably best used in a conservative way. Newbies do sometimes
get carried away with ornamentation, perhaps because they start on the Kesh. Again I would
wish to do, perhaps along the Kesh, another jig.

6

thank you very much, jim stone. i truly appreciate your help. i have to admit… i actually like the kesh. that said… i’ve played ( and sang) a lot of irish music on guitar in a pub band, but never anything with flute or whistle until i took up the whistle and flute last year. about 99% of my music time is spent on the whistle. when i started playing, it seemed like everywhere i turned, the people who had been playing for awhile recommended the kesh as a good starting point. not knowing any different, here i am. i am completely open to suggestions for tunes to learn.

thus far, i play (not with any degree of virtuosity (spelled that wrong, i suppose)) Lord of the Dance, Minstrel Boy, Foggy Dew, Dawning of the Day, Down by the Sally Garden, Inisheer, Crested Hens… and about 20 more of a similarly slow flavor.

again, thank you very much.

be well,

jim

just noticed your second post… i am trying to avoid too much ornamentation in playing so far… (mostly because as a guitar player, i a bit tired of hearing “players” with a ton of rapid runs and flourishes and little substance.) my hope is that i will learn to play with substance and solid fundamentals. i would rather be seen as a bit conservative than as all “fluff and stuff.” i figure, as a new ITM player, the task before me is to show respect for the Tradition, not remake it in a “more comfortable” form. if i cannot play it correctly, i would rather not play. it’s all about the respect from this old man’s perspective.

7

Well then, you are a better man than I am, as you like the Kesh.
My mistake, also, for supposing you are the ‘standard’ newbie.

Connaught Man’s Rambles is, IMO, a lovely jig.

The Orphan Jig is very beautiful. Paddy Fahey’s Jig (there are several, all
lovely). These are recorded on Youtube, in fact. They may be
a bit beyond a newbie, or maybe not. Heaven knows it took
me years to play them but the effort certainly improved me.

I’ve been at Kevin Maloney’s jig, from the Mike Rafferty Speed 78
CD, for longer than I care to confess. I think if JS Bach wrote
an Irish jig, that would have been the one.

Off She Goes…

Boys of the Town

The Old Legacy

I’m sure others have favorites and it’s all personal taste, finally.
Anyhow I feel I’ve profited from these.

8

jim stone,

thank you again for the follow-up post. i’m sure i’m not a better man than anybody. i’m just me. and, honestly, i thought was just another standard noob. if anything, i think my background gets in the way of my learning more than it helps. it has certainly been a hindrance thus far, but i am learning how little i know.

i will give a listen to the jigs you mentioned. i’m sure they will be beyond my level, but… i’m a patient old fart. i’ve plenty of time before me (tho’ not as much as is behind me, i suspect.) i’ve been listening ( a lot ) to the Red Haired Boy (reel?)

i don’t want to limit myself to just looking at jigs at this early point. if anybody thinks i should be looking at anything else…

be well,

jim

9

The Coming of Spring is a lovely jig I recently discovered from watching the Comhaltas videos of the ceili bands.

Tobin’s Favourite is also a great jig.

We play Kesh at session as the default jig when we can’t think of a jig to go with something else we’re playing. We also have a little things we do with it sometimes where the bass and guitars (we don’t have pipes) do a drone for four measures then the whistles come in with the A part then everyone comes in for two times through then a lone whistle finishes it off with the A part one time through.

10

Well, the terminology can get messy here. Most whistlers I know refer to the fingers by the note name produced when you close that finger. I.e. T3 = G, B2 = E, etc. Whereas most pipers (and some fluters) refer the the fingers by the name produced when you lift or vent that finger. I.e. T3 = A, B2 = F#, etc. So in piper’s terms, your unorthodox way is to cut the G by lifting the “A finger” T3, which sounds like it makes more sense.

Also, “flip” is my own term, so don’t expect anyone else to know what the heck it means. :slight_smile:

I don’t know about 10 or 15 years. :astonished: But each cut fingering can produce a different quality of “chirp” or “bark” as Jim says, so just listen carefully for the differences on your particular whistles.

Well, the Larsen hot button is mostly a misunderstanding, again having to do with the nature of beginning tutorials. His preferred “one way” that he picked to present is less common. Which leads beginners to think he’s demanding that cuts always be played his way or the highway. In practice, I’m sure that Grey, as an experienced player, may use a variety of different cut fingerings and sees nothing wrong with others doing otherwise than he.

Yep, that’s perfectly normal. With your less dominant hand usually on top, the T1 and T2 fingers are often quite weak and uncooperative. The earlier you start disciplining them, the better off you’ll be in the long run.

BTW, my “graduated” version of the Kesh Jig rolls and cuts is still up on Box.net, and you might find that helpful. The discussion and mp3 link are here:

Discussion: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/kesh-rolls-and-cuts/58147/1
MP3 link: http://www.box.net/shared/1t7xdc9jne

11

Lovely jigs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2Z1JY3h9w

12

uhm, Mr. MTGuru? sir? if i were to post a link of me playing the Kesh, would you be willing to listen and tell me how bad it really is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVKB9kTJg9Q this is so embarassing, but how ya gonna grow when the nearest teacher is several hundred miles away? :tomato: :blush: ) if you have pets or small children, you may want to have them leave the room before you click the link…

or anybody else? i promise not to cry too much when you rip it up… i’m a poor player and i know that… but, maybe you could point me in the right direction.

if it’s a board or forum policy not to do the video critique thing, i understand…

thanks, all,

be well,

jim

13

Can I ask for a clarification of the terms mordent and turn please. I am a noob and probably prone to these mistakes. It would be good to be able to recognise them sneaking out of my whistle…

TIA

14

Nice playing, good tone, generally well done. The stars are merited.

You might now start adding some rolls. So where you go G, Fsharp, G,
as in the first bar, you might try a roll on G, cutting with the A finger
and tapping/striking on the F sharp.

Similarly you can do some rolls on A.

By the way, Jim, this fellow is an amazing whistler and he has
a whole course on whistle playing on youtube.

RyanDunsSJ

15

thank you, jim. i appreciate the kind words. i’m working on the rolls, but my left hand seems to have a mind of its own, as often as not. of course, i’m sure it is no surprise that taps/strikes don’t present near as much of a problem at all. it’s that “cut” thing that my fingers are resisting. but, i am sure it will come with time.

i have watched all of ryan’s videos. i agree with you. he is a great player and a great teacher. i also watch a lot of michael eskin’s tradlessons.com videos both at tradlessons and at youtube.

i try to find videos on youtube of players who 1) don’t try to set a new speed record, 2) maintain a solid tempo throughout, 3) do not have an excess of ornamentation (ornamentation for the sake of ornamentation.) 4) have clean and precise articulation 5) present good phrasing that flows with the tune instead of breathing that causes jarring breaks in the flow… when i find those videos, i make them favorites and then listen to them over and over and over… and watch as close as i can, as well… then i go try to emulate bits and pieces to the extent that my fingers will allow.

found a cool jig this morning… the Blackthorn Stick… i think i’m going to give it a run.

be well,

jim

16

Good, that’s how you sound. Yes, Michael Eskin’s videos are wonderful. I learn a lot from him.

To tell you what you already know (again!), it’s really helpful to practice cuts alone,
outside of tunes. Methodically cut on the notes you wish to cut, for five
or ten minutes, say, each practice session. You get what you train for
and isolating what you wish to improve is a great help. The same goes
for rolls. Many people have special difficulties with the left hand.
As you say, it will come.

17

Jim, sorry for the late reply. I was in shock from being called “sir”, and it took me a few days to recover. :wink:

You’re clip is good - good tone and breath control. Your right (bottom) hand position looks OK, and good use of the pinkie for support. But your left (top) hand looks too cramped, and the fingers too curved. Try to avoid “guitar hand” as with fretting a guitar. Straighten out the fingers, and “lever” your fingers more from the big knuckles of your hand. You’ll get better control and speed.

Here are some comments on the transcription of what you played below (use Concertina.net). Points of interest are marked with letters above the staff.

X:1
T:The Kesh Jig
R:Double Jig
S:Jiminos - Box.net clip
M:6/8
K:G
GFG “A”{F}GAB|AGA “B”{G}ABd|ed"C"{g}d gd"D"{e}d|edB dBA|
GFG {F}GAB|AGA {G}ABd|ed{g}d gdB|1 AGF G"E"zD:|2 AGF G"E"zA|]
BAB dBd|ege dBA|BAB dBG|ABA “F”{B}AGA|
BAB dBd|ege d"G"z2|gfg aga|1 bgf g"E"zA|2 bgf {f}JHg3|]

  1. There’s nothing wrong with using taps at “A” and “B”, but they’re not as idiomatic as cuts. And since you’re playing the melody figure downward (GFG G), it sounds a bit redundant to me. Instead, cut that G and A notes with the T1 finger, and it will sound better, IMO. In general, outside of rolls, I tend to reserve taps for special situations, and prefer cuts as a default note-separation articulation.

  2. Even if you do play taps at “A”, and “B”, your taps are too slow. They sound like grace notes, and you can still hear a distinct pitch. Instead, really bounce the finger down and off the hole quickly, so that all you hear is a “blip”. Sometimes it helps if you tap with the first knuckle of the finger instead of the tip or pad; and that’s easier if you straighten your fingers out as described above.

  3. Your cut at “C” is OK. I think you’re using the B1 finger, which is fine, since a T3 cut there is tricky on the Dixon Trad. But your cut at “D” with the B3 finger is a flip not a cut, and it sounds very wishy-washy, not like a real cut. Cut that low D note with B1 or T3, and it will sound better.

  4. Again, your cuts are too slow, and sound a bit too much like triplets: |e (3dgd g (3ded|, with a definite upper pitch instead of “blip”. Really work on your timing and “flicking” your cut finger to produce Dah-Dah-blip Dah-Dah-blip. Remember that even if you play the overall tune slowly, the speed of the cuts doesn’t slow down in proportion. They should still be quick.

  5. Same issue with the cut at “F”. You’re playing a flip with the T2 finger, which sounds soft and mushy. Do a real cut with the T1 finger, and make it snappy.

  6. One of the best pieces of whistle advice I ever got was: “Keep it going”. That is, whatever you play, don’t let it get in the way of the forward momentum of the tune. And just because Irish tunes are divided into separate parts and repeats doesn’t mean that the flow always needs to be broken up that way. Learn to play across the parts to connect them together, and adjust your phrasing and breath pauses accordingly. The breath pauses marked “E” are a good example of breaking the parts. Try to find other breathing points so that you can play through those turnarounds and push toward the first note of the next phrase.

  7. The long breath pause marked “G” really stops the tune dead in its tracks on the way up to the climax. Instead, try playing through the entire B part without a breath. Or try e.g. grabbing a breath in the 5th measure with |BzB dBd| or |BAB dzd|.

  8. Your non-use of tonguing at this point is fine, a good exercise. But don’t be afraid to experiment with some tongue articulation to emphasize notes and shape phrases.

BTW, I wonder if there are any whistle players and/or teachers in Olympia? A bit of a drive, but I used to make the trip to do wheelies on the beach at Ocean Shores. :slight_smile: Back when I taught at The Evergreen State College, Provost Patrick Hill was an Irish music fan, and used to hold house sessions at his place. And I remember at least a few other Irish musicians on campus and in town.

Anyway, maybe some of the above will be useful. Cheers!

18

Sure, Phill. The Wikipedia descriptions of the mordent and turn are pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_(music)

The key point here is that the constituent notes of a mordent or turn have a definite time and pitch value, which you’re supposed to hear, even though they’re quick. Whereas cuts and taps are finger articulations to separate and emphasize other notes, and not ornamental notes in their own right in the classical sense.

For example, a classical turn has 5 uneven notes: Main - upper - main - lower - main. But an Irish roll has only 3 even notes: Main [cut] Main [tap] Main, each separated by a cut or tap. If your cut becomes an “upper” and your tap becomes a “lower”, then you’ve missed the timing and are playing a turn instead.

And yes, I know that roll timings are more subtle than this, but it’s a starting point. :slight_smile:

19

i cannot thank you enough, MTGuru. this is exactly the feedback i was seeking, and it confirms many things for me. articulation will be the focus of many practice sessions for me, but that is no surprise. a few months from now, i’ll post another run at the kesh… hopefully with some improvement.

sorry, i didn’t mean to throw you off with the “sir” thing… i’ll try not to let that happen again, sir… :poke:

be well,

jim

20

Thanks again MTGuru, that helps a lot. especially the paragraph:

Which distinguished the wikipedia descriptions of classical ornaments from the ITM ornaments very clearly. I think some of the former are escaping from my whistle :blush: