As you all know I have an older blackwood bodied Irish D flute made by Desi Seery of Ireland. The flute now has a Seery replacement Delrin head (since c. 2000) because the the other head cracked during a very dry Australian summer when I had not been playing it much because I was recovering from cancer surgery.
I have been playing into third octave a fair bit with this flute which was sold to me in Dublin as a “Wicklow Concert Flute”. I like that nomenclature as I like to think of the Wicklow Mountains haunting my flute.
I know that thare will be variations amongst keyless flutes but for the benefit of others and for comparisons and discussion I put on record here how I am getting the following third octave notes and alternative 2nd octave C#.
normal 2nd C# OOO XXX or OOO OOO
alternative 2nd C# XXX OXO
normal 3rd D XXX XXX or OXX XXX
alternative 3rd D XXX OOO (!! yes, amazingly but excitingly yes!)
the 3rd E XXO OXO
the 3rd F# XOX XOX
the 3rd G XOX OOX
Hope this will help. I have a standard delrin Seery in the house at present, which I suppose should not be much different from your flute. I’ve just experimented with the third 8ve on your behalf… It seems to work fairly well with what I consider to be the standard 3rd 8ve fingerings for keyless flutes and whistles - loosely based on 1-key baroque traverso fingerings. Set out below. Try 'em and let us know how you get on.
From G in the 2nd octave up:-
High Fingerings for Seery Keyless Flute
g’’ xxx ooo
a’’ xxo ooo
a#‘’/b’‘b xox oxo
b’’ xoo ooo
c’‘‘nat oxo xxo
c’’‘# oxx xoo this is more in tune and stronger than any of your suggestions - and is in fact the
standard 8-key fingering for this note (with Eb key open!).
d’‘’ oxx ooo again, the “standard” - and best fingering on my Seery
e’‘‘b xxx xxo (poor and overtoney, but there if wanted)
e’’’ xxo xxo or try xxo oxx, but that is too flat on my Seery
f’‘’ nat nothing workable
f’‘’# xxx xox or try xox xox, but that is sharp on my Seery
g’‘’ xox ooo or possibly xox oox, see which is best
g’‘’# oox ooo
a’‘’ oxx xxo
a’‘’#/b’‘‘b xxo xoo
b’’’ xoo xoo just about works - not wonderful, but there - a bit sharp, a bit ringy, needing to be pushed quite hard with the embouchure rolled out a tad, or it drops out. (Thanks, mcdafydd - see below.)
c’‘’'nat xox oxo not bad!
Well, had some fun doing that! Was actually easier and more responsive than I expected! Sorry the above isn’t as clearly laid out as I wanted. I did it on a Word doc. with tabs, but when imported to the C&F server, it quashes the settings and won’t tolerate blank spaces. Frustrating! If you pm me with an e-address, I’ll zap you the original - and I’ve a couple of other fingering charts and links if you - anybody - wants.
Earplugs in, or retreat to the bush to frighten the wallabies or some such!
Enjoy!
This post came on while I was doing my last - I tried oxx oox for d’‘’ on my Seery and it takes it about a 1/4 tone sharp. The oxx ooo fingering is bang on. oxx xxx is flat and slightly “ringy”, xxx xxx even more so. xxx ooo also “hollow”. Stick to oxx ooo. It is the “normal” d’‘’ fingering on the majority of flutes and whistles for good reason!
This may be going off too much into theory, but this is called “venting the partial” and its how a lot of the 3rd octave fingerings come about.
Start with F-sharp in first octave. Overblow it and it goes up an octave; overblow it again and it goes up a fifth, to C-sharp. Vent the fourth, B, and you get the normal simple-system fingering for C-sharp: 0 x x | x o o
Thus, the fingering for G x x x | o o o becomes the fingering for high D when you lift the closest thing you have to the fourth up: o x x | o o o
To get high E, you vent the fourth partial up instead of the third, so you start with x x x | x x o and you wind up with x x o | x x o
You can actually see this more clearly in the fingerings for the Boehm flute, but these show it on simple-system flutes as well. The fingerings for the third octave sometimes seem pretty random but they make more sense when you think about the harmonic series and venting the partial for the note you want.
Does xoo xoo work for b’‘’ on a Seery? I can get it pretty well on my Ward delrin, and also c’‘’'nat with xox xxo. fun fun! Obviously no wallabies here, but the pets don’t seem to mind.
After I came home I tried XOXXXX. It should work, I want it to work, I used my best embouchure, and I come close, but I cannot do it. It just sounds wrong.
Hi people - been checking out these suggestions on the Seery delrin I have hanging about (I’m open to sensible offers if anyone is looking for one - pm me!)
This just gives another F#‘’’ variant for me on the Seery - sharper than xxx xox (which still seems best), flatter than xox xox. Still no viable F’‘’ nat in the absence of an Eb key.
Bingo, yes! xoo xoo does give a b’‘’ - not wonderful, but there - a bit sharp, a bit ringy, needing to be pushed quite hard with the embouchure rolled out a tad, or it drops out. I’ll amend my original list! (Done.)
xox xxo just about works for c’‘’'nat but is weaker and slightly flatter than xox oxo, which is actually fairly easy to get, quite clear and pretty much in tune on the particular flute I am dealing with.
Talasiga We didn’t mean it about the bush! Where you been? Hope you haven’t been kicked to pieces by irate wallabies! Or have all those high vibrations exploded your head?
Seriously, I guess you’re away from computers and such for a bit? Let us know how you get on/if this has been any use.
ID10t, I have tried your D3. It works but I prefer the D3 as I have discovered for specific use when I am working in octave 3. Why? The
XXX OOO D3 I find consistently stable and gentler! Yes!
My first post isn’t just about getting the octave 3 and alternative high end octave 2 stuff. Its not about that naked achievement but more about getting them WITH a refeinement in articulation. This is what I am recording here.
Actually I am getting a beautiful run from octave 2 A to octave 3 G like this (A B C# D E F# G)
XXX XXX A2
XXX XXO B2
XXX OXO C#2
XXX OOO D3
XXO OXO E3
XOX XOX F#3
XOX OOX G3
Very precise, gentle and ethereal for upper octave 2 and octave 3. Not at all ear splitting. No neighbouring dogs yelping.
Anyone tried this with success or is this going to be specific to my type of Seery?
(BTW, jem, I have been walking a lot. 6 kilometre walks by the swelling sea. Tis mid winter here and there is mist about the headland lighthouse.
This is where I develop my octave 3 and high whistle stuff. Once refined I play them at home.)
Ah, glad you’re still about! Your walks sound delightful.
I see what you’re doing for upper 2nd 8ve up to d’‘’ - the old harmonics trick. They have often been suggested here and elsewhere as a tone exercise and sometimes as useful shortcut fingerings in otherwise awkward passages. They do work quite well on most flutes - including the delrin Seery I’ve been doing comparatives on for this thread - but they do sound overtoney because they have a lot of upper partials in the tone - hence the ethereal quality you like. Personally I generally prefer the normal open fingerings, which give cleaner sounds with more dynamic variation possible - but these are nice for special use.
Oh, actually, one of your fingerings doesn’t work at all on this flute - the c’‘’# needs xxx xoo as a harmonic of F# - your xxx oxo doesn’t sound at all for me. The theory expounded by James before would give c’‘’# as an assisted harmonic of F# by overblowing xxx xoo and then venting L1 to achieve the orthodox fingering. Again, if you lift L1 you should get a clearer note that speaks more easily, without the partials… but you seem to like those!
Much the same pertains for d’‘’ - play your xxx ooo, then try lifting L1! It should be more stable than xxx ooo and capable of more dynamic range.
I’d suggest the orthodox fingerings as I gave them also make for optimum ease of fingering/clean articulation over the upper break - try the a’’ - b’’ c’‘’# d’‘’ run with the fingerings I’ve suggested, thus: -
xxo ooo
xoo ooo
oxx xoo
oxx ooo
and back down again.
Your e’‘’ - xxo oxo - does work, but just try sticking on R1 as well - should be cleaner and easier and a tad less sharp with xxo xxo.
Similarly with your f’‘’# - xxx xox is clearer and flatter and easier to get.
I agree this isn’t at all about any sense of competitive achievement - just about exploring the instrument’s capabilities and seeking sensitive ways of achieving certain things. However, allowing for the slight variations in what works best on every different flute which have to be discovered experimentally, there’s no point in trying to reinvent the wheel!
Sounds like you’re having fun, anyway. Keep on enjoying it.
We didn’t mean it about the bush! Where you been? Hope you haven’t been kicked to pieces by irate wallabies! Or have all those high vibrations exploded your head?