Should it not be RAMA who posts everything three times ?
Triple posting??? 
Good job mate 
As an American, I take offense to that. While I do not in any way condone the actions of the “greedy, horny, stupid” Americans that are, unfortunately, running the show, I would proffer that these imbeciles are the immoral minority, and just happen to have most of the influence, via politics, the media, the entertainment industry and big business.
I truly believe that the majority of Americans are good, decent, hard-working individuals, who just happen to be subject to the tyranny of the ignorant few. And I do think that deep down, people outside the US who look down on us realize that also.
If they are not imbeciles, how do you account for the proportion of your countrymen who think , even now, that Iraq was implicated in the events of 11th September, that Iraq had WMD, and for the recent election results ( even though they were in part rigged ) ?
Obviously the masses are mislead by the media, such as the New York Times which suppressed the story of Bush’s control bulge, but I don’t suppose the masses read much anyway.
It must be the fault of the television.
I remember from the bombing of the Serbian Television Offices how good the US administration is at dealing with foreign media. Same ( twice) with the supposedly accidental attacks on the offices of Al Jaseera in Baghdad.
Pity they don’t practice a bit at home.
And just what, precisely is that “proportion”? If you imply that it is the majority, do you get your information from the same sources as the misinformed minority – i.e. the media/pollsters? Most people I associate with, when confronted with a “random” telphone poll, promptly hang up. Those numbers are painfully skewed.
I love these gross overstatements and misrepresentations. It seems you are swallowing and digesting as much of the propaganda as you claim the majority of US citizens are. I don’t deny that what is put forward as the public face of America is rather pathetic, but it is just that – a public face, created by the spin doctors. It in no way represents the true spirit of America. I would never presume to know much about [enter your home country here] without having experienced it firsthand, neither would I disparage anyone or their country based on media-fueled propaganda, put forth by the country in question, or one diametrically opposed.
And I’m sure the US is the only country who practices covert cover-up type operations. The unfortunate thing (for me, being an American - and proud of it) is that we are good enough at it to convince a “proportion” of us that what we see and hear from the pundits and politicos is the Truth.
And a general note: Too much doomsaying and negativity just breeds more of the same. True we are living in difficult times, but I refuse to let these events shape my worldview. I’m still in it for the long haul, and I choose to be Happy.
The proportion reported is usually a little over 50 %, reported by the world’s press who , I imagine have lower motivation for spinning than yours.
Overstatements and misrepresentations ?
Who says ?Just you ?
They are ideas widely held around the would in places not influenced by your demonstrably biased media.
To the outside world , it can be argued, the true face of America is represented by mass murder and displacement of Iraqi citizens,their use for target practice by your troops, cluster bombing of children, the stealing of oil revenues,the despoilation of the site of Babylon and an apparant intention to occupy large parts of Iraq indefinitely.
( It is amusing to note that the one thing the successful “parties” have in common in the southern parts of Iraq,also shared by the Sunnis is their determination , expressed in all their manifestos, that the occupying forces should leave forthwith ).
None of this is altered by the fact that there are millions of Americans who are very nice, and don’t like what is going on any more than I do.
And I have seen and liked some of the States.
I wouldn’t feel so happy now, with what I find of how the Republicans have been mistreating the opposition, ( as in protestors ).
I have no intention here of changing anyone’s opinion, but merely presenting my own. I wish the reported “world view” of America and Americans were different, but I can’t do much to change that. All I can do is present my apparent “minority” POV, and leave it at that – and then go back to the actual forum that I signed up for - not political commentary, but the love of flutes and music. – Cheers.
That bit is downstairs !
( Nothing wrong with changing the opinions of others . depends how you do it ).
Mercy, Andrew, you must spend an awfully lot of time watching American tv. May I ask exactly where you get your information about middle-class, everyday America? I mean, what tv stations are you watching? What newspapers to you read?
I don’t necessarily disagree with everything you’re saying, it just seems incredibly one-sided and bitter. Just wondering where you’re getting your info.
Susan
I’m not bitter. I have not been bombed by your lot ! Yet.
The common view I come across is that US TV tends to be deficient in the sort of information I mention. Americans tell me that.
Were it not the case the apparantly widespread miapprehensions I refer to would perhaps not be so common.
I suspect that a lot of the reporting of the destruction of Falluja , for example, which was so widely reported in depth here was not quite so available on your screens. We have had a great deal of close reporting of the war and the casualties, and the bombing of wedding parties, and interviews with US soldiers boasting of their killing of civilians, and so on which you might get less of.
What we have not had yet is a reason for the elimination of Falluja. Spite ?Power crazed madness ? Certainly the General in charge seems to have been quite crazy, from what he has said.
It was American TV which first intercepted Bush’s instructions being beamed to him during the Chirac interview, but also the NY Times which surpressed the expose of his bulges. Does the " average " American know about that particular form of cheating ?
I would not expect to learn anything from US TV.
Better use of time to read the recomendations of the Gore commission on airport security in anticipation of terrorist hijackings which Bush rejected as too expensive !
Just be careful they don’t bang together to violently. Crystal shatters, you know!
Tom
So you’re getting your information from some Americans you know, andrew? I’m sorry, I really don’t understand how you can make statements like these without having some really intense attachment to American tv.
How do you know what proportion of Americans think Iraq was implicated in 9/11? (I don’t.)
The New York Times suppressed the story of Bush’s “bulge?” You could read about that in any paper in the country - I read about it in the Salt Lake Tribune.
I’m really trying to understand what you’re basing these observations on, andrew.
Susan
From what I have seen of American TV one would need to be substantially brain dead to watch much of it. If you tried you would soon qualify, I imagine. It really is awful.
Around the time of your elections there was a lot of comment and analysis in the press Times, Independant , Observer and on the more reputable channels on the amazing numbers Your Gallant leader had managed to con on the matters in question. Surveys were done and reported.
The question is not whether the American Public knew of Bushes control bulges but when.
Before or after the election ? When did you first learn of the interception of the instructions to Bush during his Chirac interview ?
For how long did his supporters keep the damning evidence from the masses, and do they know yet ?
If they did know in time how could any reasonable, or even sane person vote for him ?
TV in any country, in mass, will make you brain dead. Don’t kid yourself, it’s no worse here than where you are.
As for the “Bush bulge”- hmm, that almost seems perverse- that info was out right after it happened, on every tv station, in every newspaper big and small, etc. There are many sources to go to over here to get info, not everyone is an idiot because they did not vote for who you would like them to have voted for- and no, I’m not a Bush supporter.
Tom
Question is - when did you read it ? The New York Times is reported as having the story ready to print on 28th October, then pulled it.
There are photos at http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/11/10_407.html
which may amuse.
I believe it was CNN which had the story of the intercept instuctions to Bush during the Chirac interview months before. Did you see that all over the place ?
You are right in that UK television could be a lot better. They are throwing valuable resources which could be used to make interesting programmes into digital channels that seem to be unwanted and merely dilute the material available.
I saw it on The Daily Show the night after the first debate.
This, of course, is small potatos, almost laughable realy. Many of us saw the wire during the debate and got a chuckle out of it. The real problem, what is so worring to me is what have we become. Fyffer is going to stay happy, well fine, more power to him. He is obviously not alone in his reaction to our current situation. The old saying, none are so blind as those who will not see, has never been more evident. I however, still believe that it is incumbent upon us, as members of a country that holds to the belief that our govenment is of the people, by the people and for the people, to act on our responsibilities and demand that the congress and senate do there jobs and show some kind of accountability for what it does in our name. The justification for our invasion of Iraq as presented to us by our leadership has long been proven false, and yet no one has been called to task for this costly blunder, if blunder it was. Instead, the reasons have been changed. We are now ingaged in an endless conflict with no borders and no reasons. Does anyone else think this is strange? Since when did we except fear into our lives? Since when do we let it rule our lives. No, there is more here then meets the eyes. It is more like we are being pulled into some mythical story that is believed by a perinoid group of armagedin mongers who are hell bent for leather to make it all come true. This is some mass hysteia that only we as individuals can change. That means hard work, never ending work. But it would seem we have chosen not to hear, not to see, not to act. We have choosen powerlessness instead of power. We apoligise and bury our heads into our friday nights. We spit on our children. Realy discusting…
Tom
I wouldn’t moan about it all, except that the majority over there seem to be happy to vote for more of the same.Then it affects the rest of us and provokes more trouble. Which the administration clearly revels in.
Excellent post, Tom (of course I think it’s excellent because I agree with you). You know, I write letters to my congressmen and senators (all Republicans) all the time (I can just hear them… “Oh crap. It’s that damn Susan again…”) but get the same computerized, machine-signed responses with their “Thanks for writing, but we’re going to go ahead and do it the other way.” I won’t give up, however, and will keep writing. At least they’re going to know they’ve got one constituent who isn’t just going to fall into line.
Other than that, though, I’m afraid I’m like everybody else. I read the paper and just shake my head and feel completely powerless.
Susan
Thanks Susan and I hear what your saying. It can be very frustrating. I sometimes think this battle can only be won or lost in the streets but I dont have much faith in our collective guts anymore. I read a poll taken from highschool seniors the other day and things dont look good. Seems many of them feel the gov. should have more controll over the press and such. Kinda scarry. Don`t stop writting though. Anything proactive is a good thing.
Take care;
Tom