Several comments on the forum of late have me pondering over the definition of the term “celtic”. The first one was Steve Power who, some time ago, mentioned that this misuse of the term “celtic” was particularily bad in North America (please correct me if I have misquoted you Steve). The second, was in the “Backstage and Onstage with the Chieftains” thread in which Natalie McMaster was referred to as a “celtic fireball” (no disrespect intended to the poster).
It seems to me that the term is being very overused by overly zealous marketroids to represent anything and everything that might have the slightest connection whatsoever to the Celts. My wife bought me a couple of inexpensive CDs the other day “Celtic Dreams” and “Celtic something-or-other” but the music was all distinctively Irish and performed by Irish bands (which is fine with me because I love Irish music). But, why is it being marketed as so-called “celtic” music? Obviously, there is a something about the term “celtic” that marketroids in North America are trying to exploit.
I’m not a student of history but AFAIK true celtic culture was actually very diverse (both geographically and socially) and has been so heavily influenced by other cultures that I do not know if any music can be correctly call celtic music. Thus, is it more correct to refer to the types of so-called celtic music we listen to as “Irish music”, “Highland music”, “Cornwall music”, etc?
I find the whole thing rather odd and somewhat confusing.
i too used to wonder about the definition, but i think that it is okay to apply it as blanket-terminology. despite the different arguments we could present, i don’t feel that there is any harm in using the term “celtic music” to cover traditional sounding scottish, irish, cornish, musique de breton, de quebec, cape breton etc.. well that is what i do anyway, and haven’t lost any sleep yet.
I made a remark at some point the phrase ‘Celtic’ music was coined solely for marketing reasons, my impression is thatit is generally not used in Ireland other than to sell something to the tourists.
The standard objection to “celtic” is that it has been appropriated to refer to synthesizey, new-age, vaguely-Celtic-influenced stuff. The people that object to using it to apply to music of countries that were populated by Celts a couple millenniums back are those that want to make it clear that they play traditional music, not new-age.
On a more individual level, those that understand the differences in traditional music from countries formerly populated by Celts find “Celtic” to be the equivalent of using “PC” to apply to Windows and Macintosh systems, for instance, or “flute” to apply to whistles and recorders; it’s just not sufficiently precise to be of much use in conversations about it past a certain level. After all, how much is there in common between Irish and Galician music that you’d need to group them together regularly?
Yes, Peter it was your remark I was thinking about which I erroneously attributed to Steve Power. My apologies to both of you. What you said was, “‘Celtic’ music is a term only used for marketing purposes (and in the US mainly) by the way”. I think perhaps you are quite correct.
On 2002-01-15 13:52, rich wrote:
how much is there in common between Irish and Galician music that you’d need to group them together regularly?
-Rich
Very interesting question. I think there are a few similarities and many differences between the two. There are enough common points however, to need a word to describe the qualities they share, and traditional seems too broad a term to apply. Celtic, for lack of a better word to describe the affinity, works for me.
Matt
p.s.
I am trying to learn more about Galician music, but it is slow going. Anyone know of resources out there to help? Thanks.
On 2002-01-15 12:19, cramer wrote:
i don’t feel that there is any harm in using the term “celtic music” to cover traditional sounding scottish, irish, cornish, musique de breton, de quebec, cape breton etc..
According to Mirriam Websters, the word “celtic” means “of, relating to, or characteristic of the Celts or their languages”
According to the same source, a Celt is:
either a member of that ancient tribe, or:
“a modern Gael, Highland Scot, Irishman, Welshman, Cornishman, or Breton”
So, I see no fault with using it as a rather blanket term myself.
Yea, marketers have a tendance to destroy the meaning of certain terms. “Alternative” acutally used to mean something, for example. Now every post-Nirvana rock band under the sun is dumped under the label. Oh well…
it was Alan Stivell who got on the bandwagon first to ride the wave of popularity of Irish music and connected the Breton music he played by means of calling it ‘Celtic’. At that time nobody thought of Galician music as being anything. Since Cape Breton was the big new thing and since Carlos Ninez managed to play MIss McLeod at 500 miles p/h on his pipes and with the Chieftains the Galicians have joined the club. Fine ofcourse but just a (passing?) fashion wave.
The companion to Irish music describes it as’a fanciful term that expresses worldview or recordshelf category rather than actual links between musical genres[…]few players however would describe themselves as playing anything other than ‘traditional’ or ‘Irish’ music’
The companion also suggests the term in a large number of cases is used instead of ‘Irish’ suggesting a degree of unease with the term ‘Irish’ in the US.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-01-16 04:54 ]
Bill Black (who has a very good sense of humor!) wrote the following on IRTRAD a couple of years back:
For example, the word “Irish” should never be used; “Celtic” is the preferred phrase. “Irish” has unpleasant overtones of Catholicism and potatoes and famines and out-of-tune fiddles and untidy cottages full of pigs, while “Celtic” is sort of misty and vague and pagan and full of beautiful women in white gauzy dresses playing Yamaha synthesizers costing many thousands of dollars.
I think by now we just should go back to calling the music by it’s name, be it Irish Scottish Breton or whatever, they are all disinctly different so why blanket them wit ha common name?
After all, it was by the Swedish pop group ABBA (yes, I was an ABBA geek in the 70’s)that I first heard the uilleann pipe flavored instrumental “Arrival” long before anyone on this side of the Pond ever heard about Riverdance. I guess that when it comes to “Celtic” music, all bets are off!
On 2002-01-16 08:20, BrassBlower wrote:
After all, it was by the Swedish pop group ABBA (yes, I was an ABBA geek in the 70’s)that I first heard the uilleann pipe flavored instrumental “Arrival” long before anyone on this side of the Pond ever heard about Riverdance. I guess that when it comes to “Celtic” music, all bets are off!
Slainte,
BB
It looks abit like all exposures of the pipes to a large audience at the time were, like ABBA, spin-offs from the Eurovision songcontest.
In 1981 Ireland hosted the Eurovision songcontest and a special commissioned piece was put together by Planxty in co-operation with Bill Whelan and Nollaig Casey. It was called ‘Timedance’. It opened with a reel learned from Junior Crehan (The Dublin Lasses which they called the Humours of Barrack street which is a related tune but not quite the same) in which oddly enough an extra half a bar was inserted (I assume not by mistake but the confusing oddity was copied for years by all sorts of people). The reel was followed by a semi-classical piece and the set ended with a modern ‘rock’ like try out for the later Moving Hearts. The pipes carried the melody in all three parts. The last two parts, Iscleran and the Ballymun Regatta, were the first attempts at composition by Donal Lunny. The whole thing was supporting a group of dancers (not the trad kind)and it was received well.
Of course when Ireland won the Eurovision again some time later RTE thought they could pull off such a thing again and knocked on Bill Whelan’s door. ‘Riverdance’ sounded like a good follow up I suppose.
It looks abit like all exposures of the pipes to a large audience at the time were, like ABBA, spin-offs from the Eurovision songcontest.
In 1981 Ireland hosted the Eurovision songcontest and a special commissioned piece was put together by Planxty in co-operation with Bill Whelan and Nollaig Casey. It was called ‘Timedance’. It opened with a reel learned from Junior Crehan (The Dublin Lasses which they called the Humours of Barrack street which is a related tune but not quite the same) in which oddly enough an extra half a bar was inserted (I assume not by mistake but the confusing oddity was copied for years by all sorts of people). The reel was followed by a semi-classical piece and the set ended with a modern ‘rock’ like try out for the later Moving Hearts. The pipes carried the melody in all three parts. The last two parts, Iscleran and the Ballymun Regatta, were the first attempts at composition by Donal Lunny. The whole thing was supporting a group of dancers (not the trad kind)and it was received well.
Of course when Ireland won the Eurovision again some time later RTE thought they could pull off such a thing again and knocked on Bill Whelan’s door. ‘Riverdance’ sounded like a good follow up I suppose.
Waah! Are you telling me that Planxty as in Planxty played in the Eurovision contest? Andy Irvine? Peter, you are seriously shaking the foundations on which my view of the world rests…
[/quote]Waah! Are you telling me that Planxty as in Planxty played in the Eurovision contest? Andy Irvine? Peter, you are seriously shaking the foundations on which my view of the world rests…
Quick someone, a Black Bush, and stiff one!
[/quote]
Well, they filled the break and weren’t in the contest ofcourse
I have been know to use the word Celtic to describe music. Like it or not, it is in our vocabulary. However, I much prefer to say “Irish” or “Scottish.” (Or Welsh or Galacian, but I don’t know much about either of those)
Some people insist on referring to the band in which I play as “Celtic,” including some members of the band. I always bill us as purveyors of American, Irish, and Scottish mucic. I don’t really like the term Celtic for all the above mentioned problems inherent in the term. It’s too vague, with too many New Age overtones. But a more general term does come in handy now and then.
It’s a bit like “Indians.” Most Indians I know refer to themselves by their tribe–Shoshone, Arapahoe, etc. There are times, though, when a less specific term is needed, since most tribes do have certain things in common. Then they call themselves Indians. (OT but interesting side note: I have never once heard an Indian refer to him- or herself as a “Native American” )
Waah! Are you telling me that Planxty as in Planxty played in the Eurovision contest? Andy Irvine? Peter, you are seriously shaking the foundations on which my view of the world rests…
Quick someone, a Black Bush, and stiff one!
Well, they filled the break and weren’t in the contest ofcourse
Oh, thank goodness. Boy, I can’t tell you how relieved I am. Silly, really, but I am relieved.
To expand on Wandering Whistlers statements…What is the origin of the term CELT{kelt} and why is the term CELTIC used in such a wide scope.
The Greek term for the northern tribes of barbarian culture was Keltoi and all forms of art and culture of these northern tribes was Keltic. These tribes encompass all of the ancient kingdoms of GALL. The Romans called the barbarian tribes the GALLI,the root word for Gallic(Gaelic).
The kingdoms of the Galls or Keltoi, ranged from southern scandinavia to all of Spain and from western Ireland to Turkey. The archaealogy of the Celts is the new HOT research and is now dispaying a renaissance.
If you wish to hear more I will be glad to post more info. Celtic history,art and culture is a passion of mine but I don’t wish to render my readers comatose!
