Good News For The English

Whistle
1

The Sunday Times (of London, England) today (Dec.1st)had good news for all folks of English descent who wonder why they are so attracted to Celtic music.

A scientific study of the DNA of a representative sample of men in various parts of the United Kingdom established that 75% of those living in Southern England had the Celtic “Y” chromosome rather than the Anglo Saxon. This was the same percentage as Scottish men, but much less than that of Welsh men.

Anybody interested can read the details in the Sunday Times website, which is:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk

Mal

2

While in one way it may be interesting news I don’t see why it should be ‘good’ news even with an :wink: attached.

There are no particular genes or place of birth required to play this music, even if some people like you to believe so.

‘Celtic’ music is a term only used for marketing purposes (and in the US mainly) by the way.

You do need to get your music from genuine traditional musicians and exposure to their playing but it’s not a matter of genetic material. There are some quarters within the music scene who like to believe that it is important, this only leads to exclusion and unpleasantness.


[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-02 13:27 ]

3

Does this prove that Anglo-Saxon women were cheating on their menfolk with indigenous British men? Or that this “Celtic” gene is dominant?

Good for a laugh, but when you start distinguishing between people on the basis of what kind of genes they carry you quickly get into very un-funny waters.

4

Amen StevieJ.

I’m sure Mal’s post was meant to be light-hearted, but the matter raises terrible questions. Maintenance of databanks containing the genetic codes of our people, and the deliberate tweaking of the genes of our offspring – not to mention cloning – calls into question everything from the concept of freedom to the definition of what a human being is.

My personal opinion, with which others are free to agree or disagree, is that mankind utterly lacks the ability to use this information or these techniques with wisdom, and that it always will.

Some things are best left alone. Having the capability to tamper with something doesn’t imply for a moment that doing so is a good idea.

5

Well, so now it’s official - I’m Irish (way back)!

As an Englishman (with an old Irish name), living in Ireland and feeling very much at home here - amongst the people and their music - I suppose I didn’t really need to know that my sense of well-being was purely biological - but it doesn’t hurt.

The only problem I have with the survey is why the chromosomatic weighting was in the South of England? For a long time the shortest way across the Irish sea was from Dublin to Liverpool (where I was born). The phrase ‘Liverpool-Irish’ is frequently used to indicate the melding of the two communities.

Steve

6

It’s actually been hypothesised that ALL europeans come from a single group of about 100-200 people who left Africa several thousand years ago…

Of course, considering that the genetic difference between a human and a chimpanzee is less than 2 percent, the difference between two humans would be even smaller. So, who cares?



[ This Message was edited by: TelegramSam on 2001-12-02 17:28 ]

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If you want to go all the way back I suppose we are all the offspring of Adam and Eve. I have always wondered who their sons married. I guess it had to be with their own sisters! Or maybe they mated with some local Chimps which might account for the 98 percent matching of genes! If this is true then I guess we have been monkeying around with genes for a long time!

Best wishes, Tom

P.S No disrespect for either the Bible or Darwin is intended. It’s all in fun!

8

or maybe some humans did evolve from apes and then adam and eve’s kids were stuck marrying dumb cavemen and stuff. Poor kids…

unga bunga!

9

Whether we humans as a race have the wisdom to be fooling around with genes is moot. The Aryans have been doing it for yonks and the caste system (and arranged marriages) is still going strong in India and parts of Asia. In Europe, the royal families inbred themselves for awhile. There was the Nazi thing. The bell curve report from a few years back was another offshoot of the natural curiousity we have for our differences. The Olympics always show that certain races and body types dominate certain sports. The list goes on.

Accept that there are differences, there are roles for all to play and that we are all part of the bigger equation. Love is the answer.

10

I love the wailing sound of the blues and had my DNA checked out, and it seems I’m part Cocker Spaniel. Way back, I mean,
way, way back one of my ancestors…
well, I don’t want to think about it.
Tell me I shouldn’t be disturbed!

11

Thanks Mal for your information - I for one found it very interesting, and fun to read.
(There is nothing wrong with information, only in how that information is used)
With all the debate about nature vs nurture, it is very interesting to trace our roots.
Geneology is a very popular hobby - many people want/need to understand where they came from. And besides it is fun to know you have a 16th century highwayman or 18th century pirate in your past.
Genetic predisposition is also a hotly debated but fascinating topic. So, thanks again for the info.

12

Yes, thank-you Mal for the information. Personally I don’t think having a so-called “Celtic” Y-chromosome has anything to do with an affinity to “Celtic” music (as noted by others). Nevertheless, I find stuff like this to be very interesting indeed. Genealogy is a hobby of mine and it is most interesting to discover the stories about your ancestors and to be able to put them in a proper historical context. Thanks again :slight_smile:

13

Well if it makes any difference, one of my ancestors (on my mother’s father’s side) was one of the German mercenaries hired by the British to fight American troops during the American Revolution.

Apparently he liked this place enought to stick around, though.

I forget his first name, but his last name was Burtz.

Just an interesting lil tidbit about lil ole me…

14

Thank you Mal for bringing the article to my attention. Have just finished watching Blood of the Vikings last night (Tuesday 4th Dec) so interesting to see that they learnt about Celts as well as Vikings.

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A news article that totally amazed me about a year ago was the finding in a cave in (I think Northern) England of human remains from 9,000 yrs ago.. Gene samples were collected and checked against some local residents. They found a close match with a local pharmacist, close enough to suggest he may be a direct decendent of the old guy. The idea of decendents staying put in one place for 9,000 yrs.

The pharmacist is now a tour guide for the cave and remains. I picture the stone-age man looking like the jowly, bald-headed pharmacist, except wearing attire appropriate to his era.
Tony

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I believe that most men native to Western Europe are descended from a small group of individuals, just ten thousand or so (but don’t quote me). That is to say, there are only so many Y-chromosomes out there, and the pool is constantly shrinking (whenever a male dies without a male heir).

What I want to know is, where did all the different Y-chromosomes come from in the first place? How many generations would it take for minisicule variations to build up into a completely unrelated individual?

17

Hello everybody,
just a month ago I have posted this text to a Celtic archaeology discussion group:

Well, what about Bohemia? As every Czech child know, Bohemia (=Boiohaimum) means “land of Boii”. Boii were a Celtic tribe, which developed from “protocelts”, i.e. from old local population of Bohemia.

According to the genetical research, contemporary Czechs belong to the few european nations with very high level of so called “celtic gene”, a genetic mutation which appeared in Central Europe about 5500 years ago. Only other nations with “celtic gene” are contemporary Bretons, Scottish, Irish, also people at hilly border region at both sides of Austria / Bohemia border.

My (amateur!) opinion is, that during the Germanic expansion in time of Roman Empire, the Celts were “split” by Germanic tribes, the western Celts survived at western islands, the eastern Celts survived at hilly countryside of Bohemia, which is surrounded by a ring of mountains. Thanks to this mountains ring and hilly countryside covered by large forests, Bohemia is a natural “fortress”. (the geographical situation is a little bit similar to Wales, perhaps with the same consequences).

Later, steb by step, local Celts mixed with newcomers from north (Germans) and later with Slavs coming from east (according to the same genetical research, Czechs are also close relatives of northern Russians. Therefore we speak nice and complex Slavic language).

In any case, many local names in Bohemia are of Celtic origin, like:

Branik - part of Prague
river Jizera (=Isar)
river Vltava (=“wild aqua”) (Celtic - Germanic origin) - the main Bohemia river, known also as “Moldau”
Gabreta - “forest of capricorns” (Bohemia southern mountains, known also as Sumava)
Sudeta - “forest of swines” (Bohemia northern mountains, known also as Krkonose)
some people say that even Prague itself (=Braga)

best regards,
Otakar Kverka
Prague
Bohemia
Czech Republic

18

Thanks Mal, very interesting (and Okverka).

To clarify this for non-British residents: the BBC pioneered the research (conducted by an American Jew, BTW!) for a tv show on the Vikings, the idea being to see what genetic influence the Vikings had on the GB population.

It transpired that the only places Viking genes exist are in Orkney, northern Scotland, the Hebrides, Mann and Cumbria. There is no subversive “big brother” cloning scheme here.

What was interesting and totally unexpected was the very high celtic gene prevalent in the southern English, despite the Anglo-Saxon, Viking and Norman invasions.

Personally, I think it does have an influence. In my own case, I have always been attracted to Judaism and have many Jewish friends; then when I was 34 I discovered that my grandfather was Jewish, it having been a family “secret”. I can see and feel a definite genetic link, even though I didn’t know about my “Jewishness”. So I also think my celtic “ancestry” (I was born and brought up in southern England) has an influence.

19

Otakar’s comments and revelation of the Celtic origin of Bohemian geographical features are very interesting, but not surprising.

The Celtic culture originated in the Salzburg area and spread eastward down the Danube as far a Byzantium. Celts also occupied Switzerland (the Helvetii were a Celtic tribe)and with the Rhine (another Celtic name)as an artery spread into what is today Germany and the Low Countries. They also occupied Northern Italy (Turin and Milan are both names of Celtic origin) and in the third century BC, under a chief named Brennos (for whom the Brenner Pass is named) they conquered Rome itself. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, the Celts were never interested in city living, and left Rome after receiving a huge ransome payment from the beseiged Roman senate, which was holed up on Capitoline Hill.

Manyh geographical features and cities of Western Europe have names today that were bestowed by the Celts. Paris, the Rhone (“red”) and Garonne ("garbh abhain’ or “rough river”) in France, and Galicia in northern Spain come readily to my mind. People know that that France Gaul) was a Celtic country in Caesar’s time, but not so well known is that Spain had a Celto-Iberian culture before subsequent invasions by Carthaginians,Romans, Visigoths and the Moors.

The Greeks gave the Celts the name by which history knows them (Keltoi) and their presence in the Middle East is acknowledged in the New Tesiment’s epistle by St. Paul to a Christian colony of Celts (Gauls)known to us as Galatians.

Legendary warriors, known for their skills with chariots and their districtve long swords,many Celts arrived in the Middle East and North Africa as mercenaries. At one time, I have read, one of the Ptolemy dynasty king’s of Egypt’s armies consisted largely of Celts.

At the other end of Europe, after the Danes and Norwegians settled in Scotland and Ireland, Viking crews were often composed of both Scandinavians and Celts, and the settlers who first populated Iceland were of this mixture, and by extrapolation, it would not be unreasonable to assume the same of the first Norse settlements in Greenland and North America.

For those who are interested the history of this fascinating people, but for whom neither Otkar nor I nor most others who contribute to this forum would be here.

For those who are interested, I recommend a book published by Constable & Co. Ltd.,… “The Celtic Empire”, by Peter Beresford Ellis. It traces the first millenium of Celtic history, from 1000 B.C. to 51 A.D. A paperback edition was first published in 1992 and a CIP catalogue record for the book is available from the British Library.

They were the first great people from Europe north of the Mediterranean to make their mark on the pages of history, and their fate was best summed up by a grreat Roman historian Tacitus, who knew them well. He wrote:

“Fighting retail, they were beaten wholesale. Had they been inseparable, they would have been insuperable.”

Publius Cornelius Tacitus
(paraphrased by
Harri Webb)

Mal

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Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, the Celts were
never interested in city living, and left Rome after receiving a huge ransome payment from the beseiged Roman
senate, which was holed up on Capitoline Hill.

Isn’t that the origin of the phrase “vae victis”? IIRC the Romans had to pay a certain weight in gold, which was measured out in public. When on of the Romans complained that the weights were untrue, the Celt leader through his sword on the scales, forcing the Romans to pay its weight in gold also, saying, “vae victis” (Woe on the vanquished).