OT: Europe's Problem--And Ours

Thanks, everyone. Let me first point something out that should be obvious, but apparently is not. My initial post did not endorse the conclusions of the article. I thought it might provoke thought and discussion, which indeed it did, although not always in the same posts. :slight_smile:

Bloomie, I basically agree with what you’re saying. As you know, however, I’m uncomfortable with your repeated assertion that America is remarkably homogeneous. I think I understand what you mean, that you’re speaking in relative terms, but I also think that that assertion, if accepted unquestioningly, is the start for many European misconceptions about America. So I’m uncomfortable with that. But I’m sure you don’t really want me to be uncomfortable, right? :slight_smile:

Claudine: have you considered that your comments re Poland are in a way a parody of what many Americans say about Europeans, particularly of the French? A little acquaintance with Polish history would suggest that Poles haven’t much reason to feel loyalty to their neighbors. It is interesting to note that in WWII the Poles had more men under arms fighting the Nazis than did the French (approximately one million Poles). And that Polish and Czech airmen had the highest rates of combat victories during the Battle of Britain–indeed, Polish airmen made up fully 20% percent of the RAF at the height of that campaign. Poland also provided its “allies” France and England with Enigma, without which the war against Nazi Germany might have had a drastically different outcome. Nevertheless, Polish units were not allowed to march in the VE Day parade in London lest that offend “Uncle Joe” Stalin. Loyalty works both ways. :frowning:

Brigitte: thanks for your precisions re religious status and establishment in Europe. Those are complications that we have, for the most part, been spared as well. It’s part of the reason that anti-clericalism per se is not such a part of American attitudes to organized religion. You also do me the favor of not equating my views with the author’s.

U2 wrote:

One might have initially thought a European’s perspective would be considered, rather than summarily dismissed.

but unfortunately only quoted a part of one phrase from what was a fairly lengthy post, rather than a “summary dismissal.” Nice try.

Gary, I’m still puzzled that you continue to argue over words–and by the fact that you appear unable to separate what I say in my posts from what Weigel says in his articles. Weigel obviously intended his characterization of St. Paul’s to convey the idea that it is no longer the home of a vibrant religious practice, but rather is, as you say, a heritage site. Architecture is part of heritage last time I checked, and I believe the architect in question has been well regarded over the years. Again, Weigel’s point is clearly a comparison of the relative role of religion in public life in England and in America–a point which you later concede.

You characterize, rather than critique, Weigel’s views as “poppycock” and “claptrap,” but your use of the word Englightenment makes me wonder whether you even know what Bloomfield was referring to.

The “crux” of your point happens to be the point that I was making in my earlier posts, but in no way signifies that America lacks a history, any more than the fact that France is part of Europe strips it of any proper history of its own worth studying. The only lesson to be learned is that the history of any country is better studied in a total context rather than in isolation.

The fact that Puritans fled religious conflict in England doesn’t alter the fact that America has not experienced religious war on its own soil. This fact unquestionably explains differences in European and American outlooks on several issues. The cause of their coming to America doesn’t alter the fact that, once here, Americans of whatever stripe developed a different consciousness and attitude toward issues than remained the case in Europe. Incidentally, that fact also illustrates that there are unique aspects to the American experience, which is why, while best studied as in many respects an extension of European history, American history cannot be simply equated with European history.

Finally, some of us here in America might actually envy being at the mercy of 700 elected representatives rather than being at the mercy of 9 lifetime appointees. Or is that too openminded for you? :slight_smile:

For the record, such as it is here, I don’t happen to agree with everything Weigel says, whether in this article or in his other writings. I do, however, think his views are worth serious consideration–as are those of the persons he cites in his article. Be it noted, he cites many European authors as well as Americans: Dawson, Revel, etc.

Thanks for ruling on that. :laughing:

One thing I find interesting is the difference between U.S. history as it has been taught to us and the actual history that occurred. If the “victors (do indeed) write history” then what we are may not be as much a result of what occurred as it is of what we have been taught occurred. If you haven’t read “A People’s History of the United States” by Howard Zinn, I recommend it as another way to see where we have come from and how far we still have to go. Another perspective perhaps?

Bloomfield, your point about American conformity has been so widely supported by observers from de Tocqueville to Sinclair Lewis to James Branch Cabell (whose Great Law of Living is “Thou shalt not offend against the notions of thy neighbor”) that I’m surprised to find thinking people still resisting it. As de Tocqueville observed, the government has less need to be repressive in the USA because one’s neighbors step in to fill the gap. Example: the McCarthy era. All you needed to do to “get” someone was to get them before a hearing board; if they failed to “name names,” exercised their constitutional rights, or failed to be properly obsequious, they were punished, not usually by government action, but by the loss of their jobs, their reputations, often their friends.
Your point about the limitations of English may or may not be true (as someone fluent in more than language, you have a perspective that I lack), but your example is a poor one. Someone who says that they feel something is important is being careless, ignorant or both in their use of language. There is nothing to prevent them from saying–properly–that they believe something is important. Likewise, there is nothing to prevent them from restricting their use of the word “feel” to sensations such as heat or cold or emotions such as love and hatred. The lack, in this case at least, is not in the language but in the parents and schools that fail to teach children how to speak it correctly.

WWII is over. The Nazi regime lasted only 12 years, but Germany has been a democratic country again since almost 60 years now - that’s more than 2 generations. It is interesting that Americans automatically think about Hitler when they speak about Germany or Europe, but they would be surprised if all we had to say about America was Ku Klux Klan or the massacres of the native americans.

Poland WANTED to join the European Union. Nobody forces them to do so. Their motivation is that they will get a lot of money, tax money from the other EU countries. Poland is a very poor country. Many polish people do farm working or other poorly paid jobs in the EU during their summer holidays. One would expect that Poland should invest the EU subventions in infrastructure, industry, education, health, whatever seems useful to make this country wealthy and stable. They should strive to become a strong partner of the other EU countries, not a nation of beggars. But their government prefered to order several military aircrafts from the USA. So they take our money and use it to buy the favour of our enemy. Of course Bush and his acolytes are amused and say Poland should be an example for us. Very funny.

P.S.: nevertheless I do love Chopin.

I enjoyed that book very much.

The example probably was a poor one. Perhaps I should put it this way: I can imagine neither Kant nor Satre writing in English, nor Pearce (that glorious pinnacle of American philosophy) in German or French. :slight_smile:

I’m currently reading the Zinn book for a Multicultural Literature course and from the first 3 chapters, all I can say about it is that it is woefully slanted toward a socialist view of history. Many important details are exaggerated or left out depending on what it is, and despite the authors assertion in the first chapter that there’s no point in making moral judgements on the past, much of the book is written in a style meant to create an emotional response in the reader. I think if you already have a good grasp of U.S. History it might provide an interesting counterpoint, but I wouldn’t hand this to a kid who knew nothing but what he learned in elementary and high school or on the History Channel.

I find it interesting, and sad, that you view the United States as your enemy. Though I disagree, strongly, with many of the political stances taken by some of the leading western European countries, I differentiate strongly between “I don’t agree with them” and “they are my enemy”.

I’m also grateful that, despite rhetoric to the contrary, the US is not really interested in world conquest. To put it bluntly: as things stand today if we were willing to use our armament as ruthlessly as our opponents claim we could defeat (in a purely modern military contest) any other nation. If we were willing to go for “their major cities are now nuclear wastelands” as a victory condition, we could quite possibly defeat all of the other major powers. Of course, were we to do so we’d most likely fall ourselves within a decade - our ability to destroy far exceeds our ability to govern, or even exploit - even were we willing to try to convert the world (or the parts of it we wanted) into a garrison state, we lack the desire.

Fortunately, whether because of level-headed calculation (hah!) or basic good intentions (which despite fumbling and spasms of greed is mostly the case) I see almost no chance of the US even considering this route. As do the leaders of those countries which most vocally oppose the US - they know we are, basically, civilized.

Even in Iraq, with terrorism by holdout Baathists and religious extremists an ongoing issue, our troops abide by the Geneva conventions and do their best to avoid damage to innocents - something our enemies most certainly do not.

Sorry - didn’t mean to go off on the long military tangent. Instead, a thought: It’s a common meme that “Europeans better understand history since theirs is longer”. Bluntly - hogwash. Europe has a longer history than America. Europeans and Americans, personally, know history only the experiences of their own lives and the study of the past.

Indeed, since at least some ancestors of a majority of Americans immigrated here from Europe, we can lay a strong claim to the same history. And it is not differences in historical experiece, but differences in how we view that historical experience, that most divide us.

Elendil, sorry for that but I really understood your question “if the author is an authority” as a serious one, that is why I answered. I did not necessarily imply that you are standing behind the article, sorry if I was misinterpretable.

The seperations between church and state has nothing to do with anti-clericalism, Europe is not anti-cleric in fact I would think many do follow the pope or bishops rules. Religion is free and granted in Germany. The separation really has to do with either democracy or church still running the country which is how it was in most European countries. They were the educated and had the power to run countries into wars via there religious kings who had to swear on Rome. The church was very rich (and some still ares as I mentioned before).

From what I understand the US have a kind of separatistic system even though it is not fixed as one on paper. You have fixed all freedom for practicing your religion granted by the constitution and there also my not be money involved from the governmental funds to run or support your churches, priests, bishops financally. (but here I am not sure?)

European politicians do pray even together in parliament, they swear on the bible if they have a confession so on this point I think there is not a big difference than to the ones in the US, only that over here it is all a bit quieter and no big fuss about being a christian if they are politicians. There is a Muslim politician member of the “if in future leading people” in the Christ Democratic Union Party.

As far as the problem between Europe and USA, I would not see a bigger one than the problems between other countries as well. There is an “American culture” immigrated back into Europe over the last 50 odd years since the war, the US was for long the hero for Europeans of course something like this changes over time but still music, jeans, hippies, free-er economics all you had and have, we had and wanted to have as well although the social system from what I gather nobody in Europe wants to adapt to which is really comforting I must admit. If you go through the streets and see the kids I would bet there is no big difference than to your kids. Still many try to emigrated to the US if they have chances. We all are less different than many want to make us believe, question is why they want us to believe it…

Schoenen Feierabend :slight_smile:
Brigitte

Actually, it is fixed as one on paper. In our constitution. Though individual politicians (and a few judges) sometimes try to push the line, our Supreme Court has pretty consistantly ruled that religion is a matter of private conscience which the governent may neither aide or hinder.

Churches are, usually, considered untaxed charities (much like any other privately-funded nonprofit) but if they become primarily commercial they are taxed. The government itself may neither endorse or forbid religious observance (though if it is otherwise illegal - human sacrifice, say, or peyote - they may forbid a specific practice). Law is entirely secular (individual laws may have been inspired by religious belief - but they must be written, and justified, in entirely secular terms). And government may not directly fund religion (the taxes many European countries levy to directly maintain churches are quite explicitely forbidden here).

There’s still some argument on the meaning of some of these prescriptions (if the government funds privately-run preschools or aid to the poor, may it fund efforts run by churches if all the government money is spent on the targetted, non-religious, purpose?) but on the whole our system works as intended. Many people - both the profoundly religious and the militantly non-religious - grumble, but I think most Americans like the system as it currently exists.

I do NOT forget. I have seen KZs and have talked to survivors of the camps. I have read books, seen pictures. I am strongly opposed to all forms of racism or antisemitism. There have been victims of nazism in my own family. Why do you think that you care more than me?

We do not forget the horror. Every village in Luxembourg (and in France) has a monument for local deads of the 2 WWs, which includes those who were shot by the Nazis (standrechtlich erschossen). I have also seen the military cimetaries - those where the GIs lie, and also those were the German soldiers lie (some of them not older than 17).

But it is not right to treat today’s generations as if they were guilty of the crimes that happened long before they were born. I’m just tired of hearing the same nonsense again and again.

P.S: Edited to delete some caustic content. I don’t want another unnecessary flame war. So I’m out of this topic.

Actually, I aimed that at all modern Europeans, not specifically the Germans (who I think, because of the distrust they have endured, do far better in this regard today than France does).

Blaming it all on those nasty Nazis, now defeated, makes it easier to ignore enduring prejudices.

I find it interesting, and sad, that you view the United States as your enemy. Though I disagree, strongly, with many of the political stances taken by some of the leading western European countries, I differentiate strongly between “I don’t agree with them” and “they are my enemy”.

Ok, enemy is probably not the right word. Maybe adversary? How do you call someone who speaks to you in words of intimidation and reproach, someone who is definitely more powerful and who doesn’t respect international laws?

cheap shot: France? From my perhaps biased perspective I’ve seen as much “intimidation and reproach” and “doesn’t respect international laws?” (except when it suits them) from the current French government as my own.

With, though dressed up as morality, no justification beyond naked self-interest and a truly breathtaking narrowness of vision.

I’m also grateful that, despite rhetoric to the contrary, the US is not really interested in world conquest. To put it bluntly: as things stand today if we were willing to use our armament as ruthlessly as our opponents claim we could defeat (in a purely modern military contest) any other nation.

What if the rich oil fields were in Europe instead of Iraq, and what if USA desperately needed more oil? I imagine some governments might be able to find some reasons for another “just war”.

Saddam wasn’t your enemy either. He was an evil dictator, but he was not a menace for your country.

Let’s see: He says he’s our enemy, he’s doing his best to look like our enemy, he won’t let us inspect to see if he still has the weapons that all (including the UN) agree he used to have (and he agreed to as a cease-fire condition last time around), he is openly funding terrorists in the west Bank (I know - that’s ok, just because it’s against those nasty Jews), there is at least some evidence he may be slipping information/aid to Al Quida (who most definately are our enemies . . .

He did his best to make himself look dangerous. And succeeded beyond his wildest expectations.

So: we either took out a real enemy or (worst case) deposed a vile, evil, dictator who did his best to look like a real enemy. I can live with that. And it looks a far sight more moral than the EU leaderships blind opportunism.

This was a war for oil - being fought with words by the governments of Germany, France, and Russia. Pfui.

Sorry, TelegramSam, I wasn’t ignoring you; The first paragraph of my last post
was an attempt at expressing total concurrence with you. I simply omitted to address
my remarks to you personally (mea culpa).

But for Elendil et al, I really believe this Weigel piece is nothing more
than Anti-Muslim propaganda cleverly designed to appeal specifically to “God Bless
America” Patriotism. And no, there’s nothing wrong with patriotism, nor “God Bless America”.

Elendil suggests I’ve ignored (or more accurately am obdurately resisting) simple, non-invidious statements of fact… But there are no facts in Weigel’s article. Merely cunningly crafted and juxtaposed questions designed to have the reader believe that the questions are statements of fact:

For those who can’t be bothered to wade through the whole article, here’s an executive summary:

  1. There’s a problem in Europe, and watch out America it’s coming here too!
  2. Europe’s population is falling (we’re killing ourselves, apparently).
  3. Europeans don’t believe in God any more and are turning their places of worship into museums (gasp, you have to pay to get in too!).
  4. There’s a shedload of muslim fundamentalists in Europe and they’re insidioiusly worming their way into society and acquiring political power.
  5. Europe is doomed to become a massive Islamic Fundamentalist power-base. Which
    will threaten the USA. And watch out guys, it’s happening here too.

Throw in a bunch of tedious and irrelevant out-of-context quotes, and pseudo-intellectual jingoism to add a touch of academic plausibility, and there you have it. Goebbels would have been proud of this piece.

He hooks you with the title “The European Problem…” (hey, bud, we all know Europe’s a problem right?) “…And Ours” (holy spit! Ours?)

Then he presents some “facts” to tie the line to the hook:

"why is Europe systematically depopulating itself?
"Why is Europe committing demographic suicide?
"Why does no Western European country have a replacement-level birthrate?
"Why will Spain’s population likely decline from 40 million to 31.3 million by the middle of the century?
"Why will 42 percent of Italians be over age sixty by 2050?
"What is happening when an entire continent, wealthier and healthier than ever before, declines to create the human future in the most elemental sense, by producing a next generation?
“Why will Europeans not admit that these demographics—which are without parallel in human history, absent wars, plagues, or natural catastrophes—are the defining reality of their twenty-first century?”

To answer the last question first, because it’s all bollocks.

Weigel gives no footnotes, no references, no readily-verifiable authenticated sources for his “facts”.

Notice how very clever the juxtaposition of the questions are, and how craftily he makes you think there are facts here by giving a date, a couple of numbers, and a percentage.

Why does he not give figures for all European countries and for the USA? And why no sources? Because if 42 percent of Italians are over age 60 TODAY, his question is meaningless. Even if we believe his figures…thank you medical science for extending the average lifespan (and not just in Italy).

As for Spain, why single them out? (because they don’t believe in God any more, are bad catholics, and are obviously practicing safe sex, the dirty heathen rascals). Where are the predicted demographics for the USA and the rest of the world…who knows, maybe the rising tide of oestrogen in our waterways is indeed to blame for the rising incidence of male infertility and falling birth-rates (thank you again, medical science, The Pill, and HRT).

Weigel doesn’t say, of course. He wants you to believe we’re all doomed over here…

Having established in the reader’s mind that Europe is committing suicide and can’t handle the world the way it once did (references to WWII, and another shedload of subliminal-implant questions like “Why do European states find it virtually impossible to make hard domestic political decisions—as on the length of the work week or the funding of pensions?” no evidence, by the way, just questions, and this from a bloke who lives in the land of 401k…hope your pension isn’t in European stocks and shares chaps)
Weigel then adds more Plausible Academia with another bunch of questions:

"Why are so many European public intellectuals “Christophobic,” as international legal scholar J. H. H. Weiler (himself an observant Jew) puts it? Why is European high culture so enamored of the present and so contemptuous of both religious and secular tradition, as French philosopher Rémi Brague has pointed out?

(holy spit doods, he’s quoting, uhm, some people we never heard of…one of them’s a Jew, obviously a really religious fellow!..and a philosopher! it must be true!!)

Then of course the whole point of the message:

“One can see the effects of Europe’s self-inflicted depopulation in the tensions experienced in France, Germany, and elsewhere by rising tides of immigration from North Africa, Turkey, and other parts of the Islamic world.”

“a Europe increasingly influenced, and perhaps even dominated, by radicalized Islamic populations, convinced that their long-delayed triumph in the European heartland is at hand.”

To make all this work, of course, he has to appeal to the traditional and religious values which (and here I confess I’m on thin ice) are taught to every American child from day one of school. And so the specious claims in respect of modern Europeans all becoming godless heathens, turning our backs on our good W.A.S.P heritage. Sigh. Really.

No facts. Nothing more than nasty anti-muslim propaganda. Cleverly done and plausible. (I did wonder why on earth John Rhys-Davies, the Welsh actor who played Gimli in LOTR, soundly started spouting all this kind of BS while he was being interviewed about his role in the films. Now I know why…he’d obviously read this stuff and like many others,
believed it without thinking, and without asking questions. Someone posted the link to the interview on the forum, but I can’t find it at the moment).

But let’s be honest…if the Mayflower hove to off the coast of MA today, you can pretty much bet that all 101 of the Pilgrims would promptly be labelled Religious Fundamentalists, arrested, and whisked off to an open-air cage somewhere in Cuba in no time at all. Weigel would doubtless be happy about that.

Who exactly blamed the Nazis for what here?

bloom, I think it had something to do with anti-semitism, but I’m not sure.

What I meant is: claudine responded to elendils “The Poles are Courageous Warriors” post by saying that WWII and the 12-years of the Nazis were over, and that Polish valour then isn’t really enough in her mind to make her want to shell out for the Polish buying US weapons.

And now we have DCrom telling us blaming “it all” on the nasty Nazis makes it easer to ignore enduring prejudices.

It just makes wonder what has got lost in the transition.

(Not to mention that I am trying not to let on how very offended I am by DCrom saying “are you wrong for forgetting” to someone from Luxembourg.)

I was replying, perhaps in error, to Claudine’s contention that I was unfairly blaming someone (implicitly, modern Germans) for anti-Semitism during the Nazi era.

Since I had specifically mentioned current instantances of anti-Semitism, many of them in France, I felt I needed to clarify myself.

For the record: though I think that Israel is in the wrong on settlements on the West Bank (unjustifiable from any practical or moral standpoint, but a constant stick with which their opponents can beat them), the willingness amoung EU to equate that with the out-and-out-terror campaign that is openly sponsored by the Palestinian Authority shows a truly remarkable amount of self-willed moral blindness. And the statements issued condemning Israel for measures like the security fence while either ignoring or applauding Arafat and his bloody-handed minions just reeks of the open Jew-baiting supposedly condemned to the musty past. As do the vandalism and violence directed against Jews in both France and Germany.

Bloom wrote: . . .(Not to mention that I am trying not to let on how very offended I am by DCrom saying “are you wrong for forgetting” to someone from Luxembourg.)"

I second that opinion.

Sorry if I offended either of you - or Claudine - on this score. If so, it was entirely unintentional, since my focus was on current events, and when I mentioned long-standing European anti-semitism I meant it in the context of the last several centuries, or even millennia. And I wanted to make it clear I was not limiting it to the horrors of the Nazi era, but the background from which those horrors grew.

I should, perhaps, have phrased my reply to here to make that clearer. But I will stand by what I meant, even as I apologize for how it was perceived.

If you - any of you - still find it offensive, I’m truly sorry. But I will have to stand by what I believe.

So, Bloomfield, just out of curiosity, what do you make of Hume? Surely, he is as impersonal and analytical as they come? Perhaps it is just American English that is somehow at fault here? (They do say that the British and the Americans are divided by a common language).