Do you think it’s best to learn the tune “plain” first and then go back and add the ornamentation?
Along the same lines, do you usually use the same ornamentation every time you play a tune or do you improvise?
I’m definitly not an expert but I learn the basic tune first and add ornamentation once I know the tune by heart. I try various ornaments to see what I think works with the tune and then work on it with ornamentation till I think it is up to playing speed. When performing a tune I probably play it a little different each time.
I believe it depends on how new you are to the whistle. When first learning, having the ornamentation as part of the tune was essential for me to fully understand the music. I was new to Irish music, and I had no idea about ornamentation. My teacher helped me learn tunes with ornamentation so that I could get a grasp of what the music is about.
But now that I know a decent amount, I usually learn tunes plain and add the ornamentation that I feel is appropriate. I always try to learn other players’ versions of the ornamentation, though, because it helps me grow in my skill.
There are differing views on this. It depends on the tune, how it’s being learned (sheet music or ear), one’s current skill level, and aptitude. When I learn a new tune, I generally play ornaments on the fly.
For me it was the opposite. When I started, I had to learn it first and then add ornamentation, because I had to think of them seperately. As I got more used to the music, I could learn a tune and add ornamentation on the fly, as I felt appropriate.
For me it was the opposite. When I started, I had to learn it first and then add ornamentation, because I had to think of them seperately. As I got more used to the music, I could learn a tune and add ornamentation on the fly, as I felt appropriate.
I learn the tunes as plain as I can, but often the notation has some ornaments already in it. I don’t know they are not “part of the tune” until I play it and someone says - “just learn the tune, don’t bother with all that fancy stuff.” I thought I was.
What happens to me is, as I play the tune more and more, it is obvious where I want to put some ornaments. I’m actually bored and looking for something to do while the dotted quarter note passes, and I start goofing around. Or, maybe while playing it faster than I should I flub a few notes in and decide to remember it.
But I think it’s good to play the tune a straight and clean as you can, so when you encounter a speed session you know what you can leave out. Of course you can leave out any note(s) you have to in the interest of keeping up.
I guess that points out the difference between knowing the tune in your head and having the muscle memory to make it come out of the whistle. At first, you play the notes in order, and it sounds “better” if you have the ornaments as part of your “tune”. Later when you really learn the tune, and you can ad-lib, you can ornament to suit the situation.
Don’t worry about a “right” way to do anything. You pass thru so many stages of whistling that what was right before is wrong now. Just do whatever you enjoy most right now. What you enjoy will change soon enough. Then do that.
I learn the tune and put in only as much ornamentation as I find easy to do based on what I can hear on the CD I am learning from. I leave a lot of it out, but I put a little bit in. After I learn it, I’ll add a little bit more.
I have been playing whistles and flutes for a very long time and it is difficult for me to just learn or play music without spontaneous ornamentation. However I do support the concept of learning things nakedly before dressing them up on proviso that we don’t start thinking that ornamentation is an appendage. The naked tune is an exercise and not the music.
My real challenge in playing different musics is to discipline the ornamentation to suit the genre. For instance, there appears to be a predisposition in Irish trad for cuts to be with L3 for notes G and below and cuts with L1 for A and B. However improvisation is expected and vital to the music but the improvisation needs to be within the parameters of the tradition.
There are two beauties - one in playing solo and one in playing with others. If you play exactly the same in both contexts you may be wearing a uniform to bed also. 
at first yes 
I learn tunes by ear so if I hear ornamentation that I like in the recording I’m learning from then I play it that way as I’m learning the tune.
When I was new to whistling and did not have the skill to execute the ornaments properly then I did not because the two were exhausting exercises on their own and trying to learn both at the same time (tunes and ornamentation) was just frustrating.
Now ornaments are second nature to me and don’t require any extra learning to be a part of the tune. I’d rather learn the feel of the tune (i.e. the rhythm and pulse) right off the bat, ornaments and all, versus the naked notes on a page. Of course, part of that for me is learning and knowing the structure of the tune well enough that I can take the ornamentation out and play it bare if need be.
I do it both ways… it depends on how much of the ornamentation I can figure out while I’m learning the tune. Some of them are certainly easier than others.
I try to figure out by ear first, using a slow-downer program, if it’s tricky, until I can play the tune through. Once I have it actually memorized, with whatever level of ornamentation I was able to get, I go back and try to pick up more, so that I can ‘dress up’ the tune once in a while. I’m not very good at separating the plain and fancy yet, mind you, but I’m working on it. I like it when someone plays a good tune, and then does interesting stuff to it on one of the times through. I hope to be able to do that more readily.
I learn the song along with the ornamentos, thus to save time. I believe that ornametacion is not very difficult technically, but is complicated to fit your brain and to really understand arnamentacion.
I am new to whistle but I play pipes. When you say ornamentation do you mean like embellishments or what? When I hear the word ornamentation I think grace notes, doublings, throws, ect… Thanks and I hope I am not hijacking the thread.
You are dejacking.
Or rejacking!
I don’t like the term “ornamentation” because it is a misnomer as usually used when discussing Irish music on wind instruments (uilleann pipes, whistles, and flutes). An “ornament” is by definition something superfluous to the melody, added for decorative effect. 90% of the gracenotes found in Irish wind playing have not this purpose or effect, but rather, are a way of articulating the music. So, it is more correct to call it “finger articulation”. So, is it best to first learn Irish tunes without ornamentation? Of course. But, is it best to first learn Irish tunes without ARTICULATION? No, I and many other Irish trad players would find it difficult or impossible to play nearly any Irish tune without any articulation. This finger articulation, so essential to the melody that the melody, really, cannot be played without it, takes the form of long rolls. Think of the first bar of Morrison’s Jig: E E E B B B. Now, if I were to articulate those repeated E’s and B’s by tonguing them out, I would not be playing Irish music (at least in the style used by the vast majority of Irish trad players over the last century at least). No, I would use gracenotes to seperate the repeated notes thus: E (A) E (D) E B (C#) B (A) B. Have I added “ornaments” to the tune? Not at all. I have simply articulated the notes in the usual traditional way. Now, short rolls are a different matter as they DO have a decorative effect and usually are not integral to the production of the tune. Beginners can almost always play nearly any tune without them. I start people off with single gracenotes used to seperate two notes of the same pitch, then progress to long rolls (single gracenotes used to seperate three notes of the same pitch). Only later do we get into the more decorative short rolls.
I follow you up to this point, but the next is just silly. Finger articulation doesn’t take the form of long rolls; finger articulation is cuts and taps. These are integral to the music, except that when starting out a lot of beginners use tonguing exclusively. So where you would tongue, you could cut or tap, depending.
Some long rolls would be plain decoration as would some short rolls. (Example, the wise maid) And depending on how you define short rolls, some short rolls are more in the way of articulation than just decoration.
It’s probably better to think of rolls in terms of cuts and taps, anyway, then you aren’t tied to the notion that the only way to play a roll is “note cut note tap note”, and you don’t have to worry about short vs long vs extra long.
If you want to pare the music down to essentials, try listening to Micho Russel. Nary a roll in his playing, and you’d be hard pressed to find better music.
I was taught to learn the ornamentation from the beginning. There are some obvious places that need ornamenting and it’s good to learn those right off. Also, it depends upon whether you consider, for example, the cut between two like notes to be ornamentation or not. If you’re playing a G then another G you would (almost) always cut the second one and you should go ahead and learn that from the beginning. Also, there are places where a roll is a generally accepted practice (as much as anything can be generally accepted in Irish music) on a tune and you would go ahead and learn that one from the beginning.
I like to learn tunes by listening to the performances of others and so I tend to learn a version of ornamenting right off.
Along the same lines, do you usually use the same ornamentation every time you play a tune or do you improvise?
Change it up. It’s way more fun.
I agree that ornaments are vital but I do feel you need to distinguish learning to play and playing the music.
Don’t tell me you have never practised tone.