I have seen a few posts here and there regarding folks who play ITM but have a “classical accent”. I assume this refers to formally (classically) trained musicians…
Exactly where is this accent heard in playing?
Phrasing?
Articulation?
Vibrato?
Long rolls/ornamentation?
What seems to be the biggest culprit?
Rhythm and phrasing (Essentially how one structures the playing) are usually a big give away where the background of a player is concerned.
EDIT: Apparently you edited your post after I quoted you…
OK… so, is there a set structure for phrasing within tunes?
And, I guess I should ask for clarification on phrasing, because phrasing in classical music usually refers to a musical idea, similar to a sentence (a succession of notes forming a distinctive sequence). As you stated, breathing and articulation follow the phrasing.
Is phrasing similar in ITM? Because in the playing examples I posted a few months ago, I think someone mentioned my phrasing was too “blocky” or square or predictable, or something like that…
Here, I found it:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/how-to-make-a-thread-bookmark/61/1
Since you quoted me, I’ll respond.
The term phrasing means the same thing, yes. However, no, the phrases won’t be the same. I know from my days of classical music that often composers will indicate the phrasing using those long arcs (similar to slurs, etc, but over a large number of notes). Often phrasing is supposed to follow the bar lines in classical music too.
This is not true of irish music. Phrasing is very different, and there aren’t really any hard and fast rules, that I wouldn’t be able to think of a few exceptions to, right away. Listen a ton! Do not, do not, do not treat two bars (from sheet music) as the standard phrase. Listen a ton! Do not treat the bar lines as the start or stop of a phrase. Listen, listen, listen!
The Rolling Waves is a particularly tricky tune that I rarely hear played the way I hear it in my head (heavily informed by the playing of Willie Clancy), however there was a very lovely transcription done by StevieJ or BrotherSteve, but I don’t know where it went. It might give you a little insight. Also, read through his site: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/tricky.html Very good information on phrasing in jigs. And finally, you can read through this discussion, but I’d suggest for now just looking at the Prof’s posts and especially reading his links: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27209
Another thing you hear people do: play eight bars. Stop. Repeat eight bars. Stop. Play turn. Stop, Repeat turn. Stop. Go back to the first part. Stop, etc etc.
A traditional musician will always keep the tune flowing connecting the end of parts (and indeed phrases) to the start of the following bit by keeping the movement going.
Thanks for those, I’m reading through them now…
It will take awhile. 
Yep. I revisited that site over the course of several years. I still go back to the transcriptions occasionally. Learning this music takes a long while, and a lot of effort, and a ton of listening.
Yeah… I’ve played like that before, because that is how I hear the long phrases being communicated in the music. It seems most of the musical ideas in many tunes are approximately 8 bars, +/- pickup notes.
So.. in general, the blocky stop/start - breathe/play thing is bad in ITM.
And, a trad ITM musician will keep things moving through the ends of phrases… is that the jist of it?
I guess this is where I find difficulty… why in ITM is it considered a bad thing to allow the listener a break between phrases? Is that just the style? I mean, in language we have commas, and also periods at the ends of sentences to define when a thought (or idea) is completed.
Is the musical language style of ITM similar to run-on sentences in spoken and/or written language where you think there should have been a pause but the ideas just keep flowing on and on and on until you think there couldn’t possibly be any more to listen to yet it still continues to go on even more than you thought it would until finally the next tune begins?
^
Humourous attempt at understanding this ITM phrasing thing… any truth to it?
The thing is, while the movement is continually forward, I can hear well expressed phrases in all good playing. Weird how that works isn’t it?
Well, no, it’s not weird… it can be done.
It’s just different, which is what I’ve been trying to grasp.
Thanks! 
I think that’s one of the hallmarks of good playing in almost any idiom. If your phrasing’s off or inexpressive, then all the ornaments in the world can’t make up the deficit.
Which is why it’s important not to rely too much on youtube for your listening, because you often don’t get that quality.
On flute, breath vibrato is the cross I bear. Fortunately it’s not florid and I keep it down best as I can, but what a perniciously sneaky and obstinate habit! Whenever I play long notes and am not paying attention, that darned vibrato will try to poke its head up every time. I blame my high school singing teacher.
I’m still working on it. A tiny bit of carefully chosen breath vibrato in an air might be acceptable, but in a polka? I mean, come on.
Try playing more whistle, Nano. Breath vibrato sounds sillier on whistle than on flute. Also record yourself and force yourself to listen until the Ohmygawd factor really kicks in. 
I finally made baby steps out of the Stone Age and got Audacity. I haven’t tried it yet; the dread is on me. But there will be a reckoning.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes!
For many years I taught Irish flute workshops (and to a lesser extent whistle workshops) at various camps and festivals.
In these workshops, in general, the majority of the attendees were coming from a “classical” background.
Their “classical accent” nearly always consisted of 1) tonguing every note 2) playing a very wide diaphragm vibrato on every note and 3) altering the timing on rolls to make them into turns.
Some of these people were able to pick up an “Irish accent” fairly quickly, but most had a difficult time shedding these deeply-engrained “classical” mannerisms.
I’ve had people with whom the only way to get them to stop tonguing every note was to have them hold the tip of their tongue against the roof of their mouth the entire time they were playing. Only then were they able to hear what playing legato “on the stream” sounded and felt like. I’ve had people who were utterly unable to NOT play a wide diaphragm vibrato on every note.
I completely disagree with this, because the earliest recordings we have of geniune Irish tradtional musicians often exhibit the very phrasing you mention, a stop or pause after every four-bar phrase in fact. I have a number of recordings of early fluteplayers and many of them play this way.
Yes that’s not the favoured approach today, but it was quite common 100 years ago.
See, I don’t think so… but then again, my breath vibrato is relatively “narrow” compared to the broader vibrato used by many flutists.
This is exactly what I am struggling most with. 
Really? Fascinating…
Maybe some aspects of ITM style aren’t actually very traditional at all? 
Yes that’s not the favoured approach today, but it was quite common 100 years ago
It’s common enough today, with some people. That doesn’t mean it’s right or appropriate.
I don’t agree with your assessment of old recordings, if you broaden it out from the fluteplayers you’ll see something quite a different.
Hi pancelticpiper,
Could you please list these old recordings of musicians that play like this? Having a fairly large collection of (digital copies of) old 78s and wax cylinders, I’ve not heard this type of phrasing to be anywhere near “common”. In fact, I really can’t think of any of them off the top of my head sounding like that.
I’d like to revisit the recordings you think in particular follow that phrasing.
Thanks!
(cross-posted with Mr. Gumby)
Maybe you’re right. It sounds equally silly on both. 
Struggle not. Turns have 5 notes. Rolls have 3 notes. Now go, and sin no more!
Oops … Don’t make the mistake of equating traditional = old. But yes, some aspects of ITM are not necessarily old, because tradition is constantly evolving.