At the risk of sounding really stunned:
I have been wondering about a few music theory items in real situations so here goes. Keep in mind that I have no theory background so please keep it slow - I know you can get really deep in this form in no time at all.
EDIT: In the following there is no music notation. All are playing by ear.
In a band the rhythm guitar player is usually able to pick out the chords relatively fast to a new song he hasn’t heard before.
Q1 - Is this because he knows what I believe is called “chord progression” i.e. he knows what chords are typical for a given key that the music is played in? Or am I using “chord progression” in the wrong sense?
The lead guitar player is able to pick out the notes that fit this same piece of new music that he hasn’t heard before. I had asked one day and he said when he is playing along with the vocalist he plays what he calls “fill” which I assume is his label for what I will call “lead harmony”. He indicated that when playing along with the vocalist the lead guitar player does not normally play the melody as this is usually irritating to the vocalist.
Q2 - Is the lead guitarist able to play the “fill” notes because he knows the chord progression like the rhythm guitarist plus he knows what notes each guitar chord is made up of and plays these individual notes/strings?
There may be a guest musician who plays a tenor saxophone. He also plays harmony and not the melody to this same piece of new music that he hasn’t heard before.
Q3 - Even though he is not a guitarist does the saxophone player know chord progression for the key that the music is being played in plus know the notes for each of these chords?
Q4 - In the above am I correct in assuming that the chords and the notes that make them up are exactly the same whether they are guitar chords, piano chords, etc?
Q5 - Is the bass guitarist doing some variation of the same thing that the lead guitarist and saxophonist are doing?
Q6 - To play harmony in the background am I correct in assuming A WHISTLE PLAYER needs to know the same thing i.e. the chord progression for the key and the notes in each of the chords?
Q7 - Are the notes being played as harmony actually the arpeggio triads of successive chords?
The answer to Q1-Q3 is pretty much “yes”.
If you know the chord progression to a song
then you have a place to start when figuring
out a harmony.
If I understand the question correctly, then
yes. If you play, for example, a G chord on a
piano, guitar, mandolin, or anything else, the
notes you’re playing are G, B, and D. If you
want a G7 chord, you play G, B, D, and F#.
Q5 - Is the bass guitarist doing some variation of the same thing that the lead guitarist and saxophonist are doing?
Yes, but he’s generally concentrating on the
bass note of each chord and the movement
between those. The bass has a particular
role to play in the band (of course there are
many exceptions to this).
Q6 - To play harmony in the background am I correct in assuming A WHISTLE PLAYER needs to know the same thing i.e. the chord progression for the key and the notes in each of the chords?
It would certainly help. Music theory’s pretty
much the same no matter what instrument
you play.
Chris Smith has a book about this that focuses
largely on chord progressions and how to turn
them into accompaniment even with monophonic
instruments.
Q7 - Are the notes being played as harmony actually the arpeggio triads of successive chords?
Only if you want a really boring harmony.
The chords suggest several notes that can
be placed into a harmony line. But even more
important are the function of the chord at that
time and the movement from one chord to the
next.
Nothing fearfaoin told you was wrong, but I can add in a bit.
There are probably thousands of rock and folk songs that share the very simple I-IV-V chord progression. I-vi-ii-V is a progression very common in jazz tunes. Likewise, you’ll find thousands of blues songs that share the standard I-I-I-I-IV-IV-I-I-V-V-I-I 12-bar blues progression. When the lead guitarist you spoke talked about “fills,” he was likely referring to the lead riffs he was playing while the singer was silent (although the use may be different in ITM; I’m not sure). Fills aren’t necessarily specific to one song; and that which sounds to the listener to be one fill is often a series of short fills strung together.
Yes and no, really. The bass note can dramatically alter the mood a chord conveys to the listener. So while a guitar player or a sax player can play relatively safely within the confines of the given chord (and allowing for appropriate passing notes), the bass note is more critical as it can really alter the mood of the piece.
It’s a little easier for the whistle player. He’s playing a keyed instrument so there are fewer errors available to him.
Leads aren’t just made up of the notes in the chord being played. To know what notes can and cannot be played when playing lead on any instrument for a song, one has to consider not just the chord that’s being played, but also the key of the song. For example, what you’d play over a G chord will be different depending on the key in which the song is played. In the key of C, your F notes would be naturals, but if the song is in the key of G, the F notes would be sharp.
Most of the answers are spot on. A few other things:
Players who play in any tradition (Irish, N.O. Jazz, BeBop, Pop Song, Funk, Old Timey, Bluegrass etc. etc.) learn the cliches of their music. That means they get comfortable with the chord progressions their music uses and the “licks” that are used to decorate and support melodies.
Harmonizing requires more than just notes of the chord. In many styles it may imply following the melody a third or sixth off regardless of the chord. So you might have a melody that goes B A G with a chord of G maj and harmony line of D C B.
Harmonizing styles vary with the tradition too. Bluegrassers will harmonize differently than trad ballad folks etc.
Bass lines need to support the chord structure in most traditions and that means they need to use the basic note of a chord most commonly. In many styles bass players learn to “walk” from one chord to another by moving stepwise. In jazz the walking is so common it can obscure the harmony to those not acquainted with the style.
There is a difference between playing lines to support melodies and lines to provide additional melodic interest. How these differ will depend on the music you are talking about.
So, the real answer here is that there is no single answer. Rather you need to relate the question to the style of music you are referring to. Unless that is done the answers will be, necessarily, vague.
I often find myself in the position of playing in a “pop” situation on whistle or uilleann pipes.
Not having a “legit” pop or classical or jazz background, I’ve had to pick up all of this stuff on the fly at gigs.
Since I don’t have all that background, training, and experience, my approach is rather simpleminded.
I look at the “lead sheet”, which tells me two important things 1) the chords and 2) the notes the lead singer is singing.
As mentioned above, lead singers don’t like to be “stepped on” by the musicians.
So, simplistically speaking, the chord tells you which three notes are available for you to play, and the melody note tells you which of those three you must not play. So unless dissonance is acceptable there are only two choices left, which is hardly Rocket Science. (I’m talking about music with ordinary chords. In jazz there can be chords with most of the notes of the scale in them.)
Here’s me playing uilleann pipes at a gig (Highlander). I’m doing what I said above, just following the lead sheet. However the composer wanted me to play the melody on one ascending arpeggio. I play melody as an intro etc.
Real musicians don’t need a lead sheet and can play harmony, fills, solos, and everything just by listening to the group and playing. I’m in awe of those people.
Being able to tell where in the sound there is space to play isn’t so difficult.
The weird bit is hearing a line that could be there (no idea where the line comes from)
but if it does then playing it is easy enough
I’ll be at some gig where the singer/songwriter/guitarist guy, who doesn’t read a lick of music, wants to add uilleann pipes on one of his songs. Since I’m not very good at coming up with this stuff I’ll ask the guy “what sort of part do you hear there?” and he’ll playback the track and sing a lovely part off the top of his head, something I’d never have come up with myself.
Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, he didn’t say that classical & jazz musicians etc weren’t proper musicians. I would imagine that many classical musicians (et.al) don’t actually need the music. I know it’s there and is used. At a guess it’s also there to keep track of where in long and complicated pieces they are. I think many notate their scores so that they know how expressive they need to be in certain passages. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they could play harmonies, fills etc.
Actually, there’s a classically trained cellist plays at one of my local sessions with nary a sheet of paper to be seen and variations and fills aplenty if/when required.
But still it is suggesting that when they play professionally (i.e. a concert performance), they do not behave as “real” musicians, as they do rely on written music (because we can all imagine what it would sound like if they all played the whole of Wagner’s Ring Cycle by ear, trying to fill each others’ gaps…).
I’m sure that, in this context, by “real musicians” pancelt means simply the ability to improvise and create musical lines on the fly by ear, nothing more. So let’s not go off-track here.
By definition, people who are reading sheet music are not doing that. That’s all.
I’ve indeed known some fine classical players who could not improvise a melody or harmony line. Conversely, I’ve known fine trad players who cannot read. That argument about global skills is really beyond the scope of this thread about invention and improvisation. So carry on …
Anyone who functions appropriately in a given musical environment is a real musician.
Maybe being a real musician means playing in situations which match your skills, and not trying to force the music to change to match your skills. And if you want to play a gig/jam/session/whatever that does not match your skills, you work on it until your skills are up for it. (I’m still working on that for IRTRAD. <>)
'course he was