Orchestra & Whistle suggestions

Whistle
21

Not a part written IN (the key signature of) Bb. A part FOR Bb INSTRUMENT. Or at least I’m hoping that’s what the OP means.

I think we’re on the same page, Chuck. If you were writing out an orchestral part for Bb tenor sax (which I’m sure you’ve done!), you’d write out the notation transposed up a full step from concert pitch. So that e.g. a written D would sound a concert C on the Bb instrument. Same for C whistle. In fact, a C whistle could read the tenor sax part at be at the correct 8va pitch.

By standard fingering I mean D whistle fingering and note naming, regardless of which key of whistle is being played.

I can manage C and F re^&rders but I’m not about to learn 8 to 12 sets of fingers for the whistles.

Yes, exactly. There was someone here who once advocated exactly that. But they were nuts. :stuck_out_tongue:

22

You need to check out sweet Gaelic singer, piper and whistler Julie Fowlis’s exquisite bilingual cover of blackbird, if no on has steered you there yet. Lovely fiddle, bouzouki & voice, though no whistle. Essental.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgTgledCjOI
http://www.juliefowlis.com/store/product.php?id=327&categoryid=19

23

Whistles have been transposing instruments ever since the standard whistle was in C. Clarke didn’t retool to D until the seventies, after Dave Shaw started making them. IIRC the first several versions of the Bill Ochs Tutor was in C; he rerecorded the tape in D later. My copy bought about 1990 was in C.

24

My Susato whistle, playing the second octave G, at three feet, registers 95db on my meter. My Blackbird whistle, playing the second octave G at three feet, registers 95 db on my meter.

First octave D’s are 73 and 72, respectively. My Clarke Meg is 80 and 66. Clark Original 86 and 75. Generation 85 and 69.

It’s interesting the Jerry Freeman Blackbird is perceived as being quiet when it really isn’t. (I performed the test three times to ensure the results). Also interesting to compare the measured sound of a D whistle at my ear vs my highland pipes – about 98 db vs. 100. The pipes are obviously quite louder – it’s the relative distances that make the whistle nearly as loud to the performer.

I noticed there is a Beatles medley scored for orchestra with the tunes Michelle, Fool on the Hill, and Blackbird.

25

That’s exactly the case (the bolded part), for non-D whistles. When you play a tune scored in D on an F whistle, for example, it sounds in F. When you play a tune scored in G on a Bb whistle, it sounds in Eb. And so on. Non-D whistles are treated by most whistlers as transposing instruments.

Yes, because whistles and recorders use two different naming and fingering conventions. Apples and oranges.

My apologies to the OP for complicating things. The point was simply to confirm that a C whistle is what is called for here, lest she buy the wrong thing. And that does indeed seem to be the case.

26

True enough, although that makes all instruments which come in families “transposing” instruments - not really what I’ve always understood the term to mean.

27

Yes, interesting, as far as it goes.

As one of the co-developers of the Blackbird, I can say that loudness was not one of the design criteria we were going for, not at the expense of the particular unique sound that Jerry envisioned. But if you find the Blackbird is loud enough for a given purpose, then all to the better. :slight_smile:

I’ve done whistle relative loudness measurements with both a hand-held meter and software, and find that it’s hard to produce meaningful numbers. Partly because perceived loudness is a matter of harmonic content as well as raw amplitude. And blowing single notes at max volume is different from playing in context, where the response characteristics of the whistle come into play. Averaged relative volume over the range (or subranges) of the instrument might be a better methodology.

But out of curiosity, I’ll run tests later today if I can, and report back to see how my numbers compare.

28

That would be interesting.

My meter has some mode where it can average over time, so if I can figure out how to do that I could try playing a tune. It would be tricky though, because I’d need to do everything exactly the same – I’m pretty sure it will average in the time when I’m not playing too.

I’m sure it’s that harmonic content that makes the Susato whistle seem so loud.

A similar thing happens with violins – the ones that really project well are the ones that seem quiet to the player. It would be cool to be able to rent a hall and an orchestra to test whistles for projection. :thumbsup:

29

Due to frequency weighting for typical sound meter scale readout, the perceived volume of a whistle playing may be substantially different from what a meter will tell you (not to mention its ability to “cut through” the sound produced by other instruments in a session or orchestra).

30

There is no standard request on this board and we’ll continue to offer you advice long after the concert is over. That’s how we roll.

31

A lot of advice is good, more advice is better and too much advice is just right - that’s the C&F way!

32

Without seeing the actual music, it’s hard to know what whistle is needed.

I’ve done a ton of transposing over the years, in playing studio gigs, orchestra gigs, etc because the music is almost always written either in the wrong key or the wrong range or both.

What specific concert-pitch notes are required? I word it this way because often the issue of “key” is open to debate and two people might end up talking circles around one another until the specific concert-pitch notes are revealed.

(I have this issue as we speak: I’m playing Sunday on a tune I was told was in C, but upon getting the music I see that the key signature indicates C but the Fs are sharp… and so it goes.)

I’m far more comfortable, on a Major tune, using a whistle upon which the tonic note is the whistle’s 4th degree, all things being equal. But it depends on the range required. One tune in C might fit best on a G whistle, while another apparently similar tune in C might fit best on a C whistle… and many’s the time I’ve played in C on my D uilleann chanter!

About the transposing, it’s standard practice amongst traditional whistle players to regard xxx xxx as D and to read sheet music in that way. Thus, a D Irish flute or whistle is pitched the same as a C orchestral flute, xxx ooo being G. xoo ooo being B, xxx xxo being E, etc etc.

A C whistle, like a Bb orchestral flute (if one exists) plays what’s on the page a full step lower.

Once the key of whistle that’s required is established, you can consider makes. Burkes are great but not all that much louder than a good Generation. “Classical” people tend to like the sound and performance of Susatos much more than “trad” people do, and they certainly are loud. The whistle that combines strong volume and great “trad” attributes is the Goldie/Overton.

33

[quote=“pancelticpiper”]Without seeing the actual music, it’s hard to know what whistle is needed.

I’ve done a ton of transposing over the years, in playing studio gigs, orchestra gigs, etc because the music is almost always written either in the wrong key or the wrong range or both.

What specific concert-pitch notes are required? I word it this way because often the issue of “key” is open to debate and two people might end up talking circles around one another until the specific concert-pitch notes are revealed.

These are the concert pitch.
Alright here goes:
gagg gag eg g d d
bcb ag baaa aggg cdb
aba ge abg
gag eg gega bcb ag ageg aba ga baga g

gagg gag eg g d d
deg aeag bgab cdcbcd b
de g gageg gega bcbag ageg abaga bagag

gfd fdddc (Bb) f gagg gageggdd
gfd fdddc (Bb) f gagg gageggdd

gfd fdc dc(Bb) dg(Bb)c dc(Bb) c(Bb)g (Bb)gf afdf gagf g

The lowest note is treble clef d just below the staff and the highest note is a third ledger line e.

Could this be played on a D whistle?

The C whistle part adds two sharps to the key signature and transposes the notes up one whole step.

I appreciate all the advice. If you’re interested I’ll post about my progress.

Sharon

34

I think you’d be perfectly happy with a C whistle. No cross fingerings for the F natural or Bb. However the top e and d(if it occurs) might be a bit of a stretch. Use the part you’ve identified as the “C whistle” part, use C whistle and pretend you are playing a D whistle (for fingerings) and you should be all set.

I hope that makes sense. Maybe one of the other folks can clarify.

35

I’m right with you. And the person you mention must have been nuts. :stuck_out_tongue:

36

I am concluding that as the part says I need a c whistle.

37

Yes. The notes of C major scale and a cross-fingered Bb (OXX XXX, usually) are what come easiest out of what we call a C whistle.

38

I’d suggest that this is a good reason for an objective measure. :thumbsup:

It was my perception that the Blackbird was not a quiet instrument; to my ears, it sounded about as loud as the Susato. But if I just came out and said, “well, to me the Blackbird doesn’t sound very quiet,” what would we have? Not much :slight_smile: Personally, I think the Susato whistles seem so loud because of their annoying tone.

The ability to be heard through an orchestra depends quite a bit on what the orchestra is doing, and how the timbre of the instrument meshes. An orchestral flute doesn’t sound that loud when someone is sitting next to you playing it, but you can hear it out in the hall, even when the player is just playing modestly. But maybe not if the rest of the orchestra is playing really loudly.

39

On a C whistle, you can easily play in 4 keys: C-major (obviously), A-minor (also obviously), F-major (cross-fingering the Bb as OXX OOO, not OXX XXX - that will give you the second-octave C), and D-minor.

It’s really NOT as confusing as some people are trying to make it. Any whistle can play the same way - 4 keys (with 2 key signatures). You can play written music in the key for which the whistle is designed (i.e. C) or one flat “lower” (i.e. F, for a C whistle). That means a D whistle can play music written in 1 or 2 sharps, F whistle can play in 1 or 2 flats, etc.

When you start talking about fingering - that’s when you start getting confused. I play a bunch of different instruments (trumpet, cornetto, recorders (soprano, alto, and bass), Irish flute, whistles, and “concert” flute. When I play, I just read the music and use the appropriate fingerings. Yes, it can be a little confusing, but you get used to it after a while. The trumpet isn’t a problem 'cause it’s way different, but the cornetto is in G, the recorders are in F and C, ITM flute is in D, whistles are in a variety, and the silver flute is in C. If I can do it, anyone can - I’m not even close to being a musical genius (and I’m not even that good!), although I have been “apid to play” quite a bit.

Pat

40

OK, I’ll post details on another thread. But here is the summary volume comparison result for my Blackbird D v. Susato S-bore D.

Overall across the entire range, the Susato averages 4.4 dB louder than the Blackbird. Not a huge difference, about 35%. Smaller than I thought, so highland-piper is right in that sense. But maybe significant enough if you’re trying to project over an orchestra.

I guess I should have tested Blackbird C v. Susato C for this thread. Maybe later!