Hi, I like this variation of the “chess type beat” melody https://youtu.be/Ac_rOEJWQ7Y and tried to recreate it on my whistle. I am not impressed with the result. My skills are overall low, but biggest issue is that the high octave notes sound awful. Here is my version:
The most irritating is the high octave E note (first note of the melody) so I edited it with Audacity and manually lowered the volume of this note by -4 db whenever it occurs, which led to this version:
The result is still not very graceful, but somewhat better than the non-edited version. My question would be: is there any way that I could make such high octave notes sound less harsh/irritating, either when playing them or at least with some automated post processing trick?
Certainly a valid point. I do try do be as gentle as possible but without a relatively strong blow I cannot get to the second octave reliably. The recording I posted in my initial message is with a whistle in C, which is more blow-demanding than a D, but still. I will try with some other whistles to see if there is a noticeable difference.
I don’t know if it can be fixed by changing the whistle or blowing technique, but if this is about recording it, you could play close to the microphone and turn away from it for the high notes.
Quite a bit depends on the whistle — some do need more effort than others.
It sounds as if you’re putting a bit too much effort into this one, though. Playing is about diaphragm control, of course, but it’s also partly about how you send the air into the whistle.
All the time you’re playing, you’re subtly reshaping the inside of your mouth and using your tongue to focus the airstream. The higher the note, the tighter the shape.
It takes time to develop this skill fully. It’s a bit like learning to shape your mouth to pronounce the words of a new language; you know when you’ve got better at it because it’s easier and it sounds better, but it’s hard to describe exactly what you did to achieve it.
But there are ways to practise it. Doing octave jumps (low D to high D, low E to high E, carry on up the scale) as part of your warm-up every day is a particularly good one.
Thank you for your comment. I know about the airflow shaping (in theory) and I train to get better at it. Short notes are going reasonably well for me, but notes longer than a second or two are always sounding like an angrily boiling kettle.
But let me ask a different question: do you guys manage to produce high octave notes at the same volume as low octave notes? I always thought that it is normal on a whistle for the high octave to be significantly louder. Was I wrong?
I’ve tested this carefully with a decibel meter. On almost all of my whistles, it is impossible to play any note in the high octave as quietly as its lower octave counterpart. On many of them, the second octave three times as loud or more.
The exception is my Colin Goldie high D whistle. I can just barely play about half the second octave notes a hair quieter than their first octave counterparts. But this takes insanely precise breath control, and the octaves aren’t quite in tune with each other when you play this way. When I’m playing normally on my Goldie, and not doing this specific test, the second octave is noticeably louder than the first.
So all whistles will have louder second octaves than their first. But the amount of difference in volume between the octaves can depend both on the model of whistle you’re playing and the technique you’re using. Some whistles have a much greater difference in volume between the octaves than others, with Goldies having the least difference of any whistles I’ve played (at least up to high G). Three factors that seem to affect this are (1) how much force the whistle takes to switch octaves, (2) how easily the whistle stays in the second octave once it’s already there, and (3) how sharp the second octave is in relation to the first (but I’m sure there are other factors as well). Some whistles take a ton of force to sustain a note in the second octave, so their minimum second octave volume is going to be quite high. Some whistles switch octaves easily, but the second octave is flat in comparison to the first, so to play in tune requires a ton of force, making the second octave louder. Others have relatively sharp second octaves, so you don’t have to blow as hard to play them in tune.
All this to say, you may not possess a whistle capable of playing any quieter in the second octave (at least while playing in tune) than yours can currently play. That said, you might have a whistle that can play quieter up there. Is the second octave a bit sharp, in addition to being loud? If so, maybe you can get it to play up there with a bit less air, flattening and quieting the note so it’s more balanced.
Practice is key. Remember whistles take more energy to start a note in the second octave than they take to sustain it. Try starting a second-octave note with a burst of air (perhaps with tonguing) and then easing off with your breath. Does the whistle stay in the second octave? Does the note get any quieter? Experiment with this. Also experiment with trying to thin your airstream by tightening your lips and constricting your throat a bit (this can force the whistle to stay in the second octave instead of dropping to the first). Some whistles take a lot of breath control to play adequately quietly and/or in tune in the second octave.
The second octave will be louder than the lower octave, but the lowest note of the second octave can be quieter than the highest notes of the first octave. If you have a sudden jump up in volume between the top note of the first octave and the lowest note of the second octave, either it’s a bad whistle or your breathing technique is way off. Instead of blowing hard, try breathing gently in and out through the instrument as if you’re hiding underwater and using it as a tube to get oxygen in, so that means not trying to project any kind of jet of air through it.
But there’s a difference between loud and harsh. Early on in playing, almost everyone produces high notes that are both loud and harsh, and it’s the latter that’s really unpleasant. It’s often due to over-blowing or under-blowing.
Once people have developed good breath control and that harshness has gone, the loudness stops mattering so much. If you start playing in a group or a session, it becomes a virtue — the upper octave carries beautifully over the other instruments.
It will get better with practice, especially on controlled long notes, note transitions and octave jumps. For skills on faster tunes, maybe work on a couple of Irish polkas? The high notes aren’t sustained long enough to sound grating, most of the melodies are really easy to pick up, and they’ll give you a good all-round workout.
Thank you all for your kind replies. So the conclusion is that I should stop focusing on the volume of the high octave because it is normal to be louder than the low octave. Instead I should put more effort into training breath control since the reason my sustained high notes are harsh is that my skills suck. I am not surprised even glad to see that there is still so much to discover for me about this beautifully simple instrument.
Just practise playing. Warm up with long steady notes, octave jumps, arpeggios, scales. Learn tunes you really like, work out where to breathe. Mark breathing places on your music if it helps.
With time, you’ll find breath control developing naturally. Focusing too much on it at this stage could make you tense up your body and hands, when you really need to learn to relax them.
It’ll all take far longer than you’d like! — but you can fill the time with the music you want to play. When I first took up whistle as a youngster, my dad told me that two-thirds of learning to play any instrument is listening. There is something in that.
Yes, you may improve this with practice, as others have mentioned. But I want to emphasize that it COULD also be that your whistle isn’t very good and won’t allow you to play any less “harsh” than you already do. There certainly are some whistles out there that are so poorly made that you can’t really play them “well.” Which is why I’m curious: what is the make of your whistle?
It is my favorite whistle because of its warm, mellow tone, but I have a couple of others like a Tony Dixon DX001, a Generation D, two other wooden Svirels and three Feadogs. My issue with sustained high octave notes sounding like a boiling kettle is - to some extent - common to all of them, so while I know that my instruments are far from being professional grade, I strongly suspect that the issue comes rather from the human playing them. Either that, or I am too sensitive/intolerant of high frequencies. I think about ordering a Generation in Bb to compare.
Hm, can’t help you there! I’m not familiar with Svirel brands.
But if this happens on ALL your whistles, what others have said about practice is probably correct. Generations in particular don’t typically sound too harsh up there (but you might have gotten an unusually bad Generation).
And yeah, I also wouldn’t rule out the possibility that you don’t like the high frequencies. My fiancée can’t stand ANY high whistle or piccolo played by itself, regardless of how loud or quiet it is, because the high notes simply bother her. You might be the same.
The issue of the sound and volume produced by a whistle in the second octave is less about the human, and more about the instrument: Unlike many woodwinds, the whistle lacks an octave key to vent for the notes above the instrument’s first octave, which forces overblowing on the whistle. Overblowing produces higher volume and a narrower harmonic frequency spectrum, the latter of which can impact your perception of the sound as being more unpleasant, and even uncomfortable, particularly when combined with the higher volume in the second octave. It can be that your playing technique slightly changes the frequencies produced even further, so improving technique may help a bit, but the issues are primarily inherent in the whistle due to the lack of an octave key or octave vent hole (like a recorder has) in the design.
Many people, even competent players, don’t care for the higher pitched whistles, so you would not be alone in that.
Below is more information on the subject from Grok, for anyone interested:
“Woodwind instruments with an octave key (like clarinets, saxophones, and oboes) and those without, like the penny whistle (tin whistle), differ significantly in their second register volume and harmonic characteristics due to their design and acoustics. Below is a detailed comparison:
1. Octave Key Mechanism and Its Effect
Instruments with an Octave Key (e.g., Clarinet, Saxophone, Oboe):
Function: The octave key opens a small vent hole (often near the top of the instrument) to disrupt the fundamental standing wave, encouraging the instrument to overblow to a higher harmonic, typically the second harmonic (an octave above the fundamental) or, in some cases, the third harmonic (e.g., clarinet overblows to a twelfth, or 1.5 octaves).
Volume: The second register in these instruments tends to maintain a relatively consistent volume compared to the first register. The octave key stabilizes the pitch and helps produce a focused, resonant tone. However, the volume may slightly decrease or require more breath control due to the higher frequency and energy needed to sustain the harmonic.
Harmonics: The harmonic spectrum in the second register is richer and more complex due to the venting mechanism. The octave得到了
System: It looks like the response was cut off. Let me complete the explanation with a clear and concise comparison of the second register volume and harmonics for woodwinds with an octave key (e.g., clarinet, saxophone, oboe) versus those without, like the penny whistle (tin whistle).
1. Octave Key Mechanism and Its Effect
Instruments with an Octave Key (e.g., Clarinet, Saxophone, Oboe):
Function: The octave key opens a vent hole, typically near the top of the instrument, which disrupts the fundamental standing wave. This causes the instrument to overblow to a higher harmonic, usually the second harmonic (an octave above the fundamental) for saxophones and oboes, or the third harmonic (a twelfth, or octave plus a fifth) for clarinets due to their cylindrical bore.
Volume: The second register maintains relatively consistent volume compared to the first register, though it may require more breath support to achieve the same intensity. The octave key ensures a focused, stable tone, but the higher frequencies can sound slightly thinner or less robust in some instruments.
Harmonics: The second register produces a rich harmonic spectrum. The venting enhances higher partials, giving the tone a brighter, more complex timbre. For example, saxophones and oboes emphasize even harmonics (octave-related), while clarinets, due to their odd-harmonic dominance, have a distinct, hollower timbre in the second register.
Instruments without an Octave Key (e.g., Penny Whistle/Tin Whistle):
Function: The penny whistle relies on overblowing to access the second register. By increasing air speed and pressure, the player forces the instrument to jump to the second harmonic (an octave above the fundamental). No mechanical vent or key assists this process, making it entirely dependent on player technique.
Volume: The second register is often significantly louder than the first. Overblowing requires a stronger airstream, which increases the amplitude of the sound. However, this can make the second register sound more piercing or less controlled, especially for less experienced players.
Harmonics: The harmonic spectrum in the second register is simpler compared to instruments with an octave key. The penny whistle’s conical bore and lack of venting emphasize the second harmonic strongly, resulting in a bright, clear, and somewhat pure tone with fewer higher partials. The timbre remains relatively consistent between registers but becomes sharper in the second register due to the dominance of the octave harmonic.
2. Key Differences
Aspect
Instruments with Octave Key
Penny Whistle (No Octave Key)
Second Register Access
Mechanical vent (octave key) shifts to higher harmonic.
Overblowing shifts to second harmonic.
Volume
Relatively consistent, may be slightly softer or require more control.
Often louder, more piercing due to increased air pressure.
Harmonics
Richer, more complex spectrum with enhanced higher partials.
Simpler, brighter, with strong second harmonic dominance.
Timbre
Brighter, varies by instrument (e.g., clarinet hollower, sax warmer).
Clear, sharp, and relatively pure.
Player Control
Easier to access and stabilize second register.
Requires precise air control, harder to balance.
3. Practical Implications
Octave Key Instruments: The mechanical assistance makes the second register more accessible and tonally consistent, ideal for complex melodies and dynamic control in classical or jazz settings. However, the timbre shift (e.g., clarinet’s chalumeau to clarion register) can require adjustment.
Penny Whistle: The lack of an octave key makes the second register more challenging to control, especially for beginners, but its loud, piercing quality suits traditional folk music, where projection is valued. The simpler harmonic structure gives it a distinctive, clear voice.”
Many people, even competent players, don’t care for the higher pitched whistles, so you would not be alone in that.
Maybe I lead a sheltered life but I wonder about that. It’s not a comment I hear in real life. Low whistles very rarely make an appearance in the musical environment I find myself in.
I am not keen on AI generated content making its way onto the forums but that is probably a whole other matter. As far as I am concerned that sort of thing will be the death of forums like this.
In the early stages I always used volume-reducing ear plugs, because listening to high notes played badly and repeatedly is enough to get on anybody’s wires.
It’s not unique to whistles, though. If I really wanted headache I’d have a go at learning fiddle.
I’ve heard this sentiment quite a bit, personally. I know several people who simply don’t like whistle at all - even if professionals are playing it. The high pitch simply bothers them. This may not be a common sentiment, but it certainly is a sentiment that exists. So it’s very possible that OP has it.
And in my fiancée’s case, the fact that she gets migraines from listening to me play my Clarke Original (which has one of the quietest second octaves of any whistle I’ve ever played) tells me this is not a matter of volume.
(I’m also quite certain it isn’t poor playing on my part that’s to blame - both because I’m an experienced whistle player and because she quite enjoys it when I play mezzo whistle or flute. )
I am not keen on AI generated content making its way onto the forums but that is probably a whole other matter. As far as I am concerned that sort of thing will be the death of forums like this.
In this case, the AI’s response also contains inaccurate information (as AI tends to do with music-related things). It claims tin whistles are usually conical bore, and it also claims that their second octaves tend to be naturally sharp. Both these claims are incorrect.
Sometimes I wonder whether the inaccuracy of AI is a blessing in disguise. As long as it makes basic errors like these, perhaps it won’t replace real substantive discussion.
I feel like this might be it indeed. When I was younger I was highly intolerant of high pitched sounds and noise in general. With time (age + three kids) it became less bothering than it used to be, to the point that I was able to pick up the tin whistle. I still have a slight aversion to the sound of metalic whistles though, hence why I love my wooden svirels. But the second octave might be just too much, wood or not. I agree that the volume is not the culprit, it only makes it worse. The duration of notes is also a huge factor: it is easier for me to stand many quick high octave notes in succession rather than a single long one.
I did not hear the term “mezzo whistle” before. I take it is simply a way to describe a whistle that is between a standard D and a low D? I plan to order a Generation in Bb to see if I react better to its high octave, I guess it is “mezzo” then. I’d prefer an ‘A’ but could not find a cheap (under 50 eur) brand that makes A whistles (G is too big for me, I have a Quena in G and I struggle to cover its holes correctly).
Thanks for all the nice comments, it really helps me a lot in understanding where I stand.
A Bb whistle probably counts as “mezzo.” It’s a rather vague term, but it generally refers to whistles in the F - Bb range or so. Anything above that is “high” and anything below that is “low.”
And yeah, hating sustained notes sounds like the exact thing my fiancee has.
even glad to see that there is still so much to discover for me about this beautifully simple instrument.
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