Does this transposing problem only happen at church?

Whistle
1

I have been playing the whistle for about seven years now, and recently I’ve been playing it at church, where I also play the Boehm-system flute. I started playing whistle music at church by ear because I had heard a canned version of a song that they were going to be doing completely live. It required an E-flat whistle, but it was easy because I was doing it completely by ear. Then the music minister started happening upon more songs with whistle parts, usually written within the flute part and not as a separate part.

Reading the music has of course been really easy in G or D, but when the music calls for another key, I have to usually pencil in the D whistle notes because I’ve always played concert C instruments and am not used to the idea of transposing on the spot (from a hymnbook, for example, like the trumpets sometimes have to do).

The catch is seeing things like a saxophone or soprano saxophone part written into the flute part. It is not in concert pitch but in the pitch needed by the saxophone player, which means that we flute players just leave that part out unless somebody plays the saxophone, or unless we pencil in the transposed part for our C instruments. I was wondering why they don’t do this for whistle music? The whistle is, after all, technically a C instrument, even though you have E and A and etc. whistles, so all the fingerings you have to memorize are in the G or D-keyed scale sets. I’ve heard that this convenience is done for fife music. Maybe they just don’t realize that if everything showed up in the key of D or G with a tiny note such as “D whistle” that all we’d have to do is grab the appropriate whistle instead of going through all that trouble of transposing.

The good thing is that there is usually enough warning (in my particular situation) to do this task of penciling in (like hey, there’s a whistle part in the Christmas program, or hey this new book has a whistle song in it).

I was just curious about this, and as I am new to the boards, I hope that I haven’t so soon redone someone else’s topic.

2

Welcome to Chiff and Fipple!

I normally play by ear in church, which for me is much easier than stitting down and transposing music with a pencil.

3

Welcome to the board, Morgan. Your question is far from redundant, though whistle transposition is one of the more vexing issues that crops up regularly here.

The simple answer is that many composers and arrangers are simply unaware of whistle keys and capabilities - such as the preference for DMaj/GMaj and related keys. So they simply write out the part they want in concert pitch, and it’s up to you to figure out which whistle to play it on, and in what transposed key. It’s part of the skill expected of studio players and others who perform (professionally) in orchestral settings. It’s why they carry a set of whistles in many keys. And it’s in a long art music tradition of transposing, moveable clefs, etc. for winds and strings.

It would be nice if composers wrote for specific whistle/key combinations. But when they don’t, then as you and Adrian say, if you can figure out the right combination in advance by ear, or on paper, all the better.

That’s true of a D whistle. Though try telling whistlers that a D whistle is actually a C instrument (meaning concert pitch), and their heads start to spin. :slight_smile:

(BTW, I just noticed that this exact same terminology issue has just popped up on the flute forum. Heads are spinning … )

The fact is, most players who transpose don’t think of non-D whistles as C instruments, but rather as transposing instruments like other band instruments - Bb trumpet, Eb alto sax, F horn, etc. So if you see, for example, a trumpet part you want to double on whistle, one solution is to grab your C whistle (equivalent to a Bb instrument) and play it as written if possible. Similarly, use an F whistle for Eb instrument parts, G whistle for F instrument parts, etc.

Actually, with a bit of awkwardness, whistles can play in A/E/F/Bb Major and related keys (fingerings). So if these keys turn up regularly in your church parts, they might be worth experimenting with to avoid changing whistles in mid-stream.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

4

I had this same problem while I was playing whistle at Church. I ended up quickly writing out my own transpositions. But this took too much time, as our choir director is very efficient (slave-driving) and he blasts through a large number of hymns in a short rehearsal each week, and the choir would do quite a few unique songs each week.
So I ended up getting a Boehm flute and learning how to play it at a fairly basic level (I’ve played Irish flute my whole life).

5

ah, church music and transposing. one of my favorite topics. our folk group at church regularly lowers the key of a song because my wife’s singing range has lowered over the years. i play a few instruments and sight transposing is probably my only musical gift from God. i have four pieces of advice for you:

  1. work on your sight transposition skills. i have tried explaining how this works in my head for different instruments for folks who have studied music extensively and have advanced degrees and they just don’t get it. i can’t get them to forget “steps” and “half-steps” and to think in terms of “down three (or whatever) notes.” i did explain it to a friend who i taught to play the guitar. he can’t sight transpose but he can figure it out with the homemade transposition slide ruler that i made for him. i should patent that sucker.
  2. once you start learning to sight transpose, you’ll find that you’re following the same pattern for most songs. church music is only written in a few keys and transposing from Bb to G is the same as tranposing from F to D. i have never had to transpose from a simple key to a more complicated key. i have only learned the fingerings for the whistle for the keys of D, G, C, & F. with the right whistle, i could sight transpose a song and play with the right whistle to play in any required key.
  3. once i got the sight tranposition down on a whistle, then i had to keep thinking things like, “even though this is a C whistle, i have got to remember to treat it like a D whistle for this song.”
  4. unless your choir director is totally obsessive, playing anything that sounds nice and blends will work.

i’m glad to see another church whistler here. i know there are a few church harmonica players here too.

6

This has become my modus operandi. Growing up in school band, and singing in choral groups, I was always trained to render the notes on the paper, and nothing but the notes.

I’ve had to learn to play improvisationally, by ear. There is never time to re-write parts (most music we use is just lead sheets anyway). I keep a bag full of whistles in various keys, just grab what I need, and start playing.

7

Wow, this is a very responsive forum! I’ve visited the site itself several times but not the forum until recently. Thank you all so much for your replies. (I’m starting to feel better about this WhOA idea I’ve heard about, too.)

So far, I have in my collection D, C, E-flat, and even a B (made necessary by “Be Thou My Vision” for crying out loud, can you believe it?) :slight_smile: I’m glad my flute gig bag has a little side pouch that can hold my whistle collection.

I’ve been meaning to get more into learning chords and getting better at improvising, so I guess that would be a good time to get more used to sight transposing in the process, which I’ve started learning to do–but I usually panic and cave and pencil it in because with our sound system they have to mike me, and I don’t want to screw up too badly before I learn how to fake my way out of it.

As far as the strictness of the director is concerned, I could probably get away with quite a bit of improvising, at least as far as the whistle part is concerned…after all, the demos on the soundtracks seem to be having a little fun with the embellishments.

Thanks again!

8

snrk chortle Hee-hee Bwahahahahahah sigh

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Seriously, let me know how that works out for you.

(Pay no attention to me, I’m just jaded from all possible manner of flubs in the last 17 years of church musicianship. I’m sure you’re a much more disciplined musician than I.) :laughing:

Mark

9

Our church band (as in, rock/pop-style band) plays each song in whatever key is comfortable for the worship leader, so it is often not the key the “official” scores or the original CD track is in.

So we all have to transpose, whether or not our instrument is a transposing instrument or not. The leader tries to let us know the keys he wants before our practice night, and maybe he emails the music track/score to us for unfamiliar songs (which may not be in the key he wants), and we each are supp to work out our own chords and parts.

Since these scores often are mainly for keyboards and guitars, and we don’t have that many flute, sax and whistle players in our church, we often just ad-lib our parts. The music track may give us an idea as to where and how we can fit in.

Then we bash through the songs during the practice, give feedback and comments to one another, maybe tweak some arrangements. I don’t sight-transpose much. I try to understand and know all the songs inside out, then just improv off the top of my head, in whatever key is chosen.

On the service day itself, it’s a mixture of your own experience and creativity arising from listening to lots of other music, what the worship leader does, and God’s inspiration, that decides how the music’s played. For us woodwind/whistle players, it’s often very diff from what was done during practice. [as you can tell, we don’t have a music director :wink: ]

I have whistles in many keys, so that I’m ready for almost any key the worship leader may wish to do a song in. For whistles, if you really need to jot down your transpositions, do so in solfege or 1-2-3 notation, and what key it’s in. Then just pick the right whistle and play your do-re-mi-s.

10

The great thing about church music, for a WHOA sufferer, is that it provides an excuse for all those strange-keyed whistles that cry out to be acquired. Passing through Inverness, I came across a rather fine and very cheap Himalayan bamboo whistle in A flat, which just had to be bought… but now I can play ‘The grace of the Lord like a fathomless sea’ which happens to be in D flat (and if I’m just playing at home for my own amusement, is followed very nicely by a strathspey transposed down from B flat to A flat). Now how many folk tunes are in D flat?
As to transposing, I find as the least experienced member of our folk/early music band that I often get the third part to play, which in some arrangements is written in the bass clef and in others in the treble. The great thing about this is that it motivates extra practice. You get there in the end. Never having played any other instrument, and never having been taught to read music, but just picked it up, I’ve never had the feeling of “that note means this fingering”, but “that’s a D, where’s that on this whistle…which whistle am I holding anyway…what day is it?” which means you’re struggling if you haven’t put the practice in. The other day quite a simple bass part to Mr Beveridge’s Maggot defeated me because I was trying to sight-read on a low F whistle in B flat in the bass clef.

11

I just play Db songs straight, without any transposing, on my D whistles. It just happens to have the same pattern of notes, I guess.

12

a weird notation system makes strangers …

13

I envy your God-given talent Mutepointe. I am horrible at sight-transposing.
True though that I did end up using every stinkin’ whistle in my bag, and I have every key except F sharp, which would have come in handy for one tune.
But our choir director strictly follows the arrangements in the printed music and wants me to play the flute intros, outtros, bridges etc note-for-note as written so I have to be able to sightread accurately. For me the best solution was to get a Boehm flute and learn to sightread on it. I would love to be in a looser sort of group, and one that did more “Celtic” style stuff!
PS know where Chesapeake is, near Marmet? My home town.

14

The funny thing is that I actually am playing at two different churches and am in two different situations. The orchestra at the church I attend usually doesn’t play on Sunday nights unless it is for a particular presentation, so I’ve been going to my parents’ church in the evenings which has a smaller music group and the consequent greater freedom of improvisation. I’m not really sure how it happened, but you can have a lot of fun with a whistle and the “Amazing Grace/My Chains Are Gone” from the “Amazing Grace” movie, which was rather spontaneous the night it happened but works well with a song like that. They have arrangements there, but if I notice that I can pop out a whistle, I do it. A lot ends up improvised or by ear once the key is recognized (or if there happens to be no music out for a particular song).

At the other church, our director is also a band director (or a retired one, I’m not sure which), and at least two other members of the orchestra are band directors at local schools, and most of us are currently in or were in high school bands, so it’s more as-written there (except on the more infrequent unique parts like the whistle solos). There is less freedom of improvisation here on the Boehm flute (or on the whistle, unless a part is written in or falls under my previous examples) because there are usually three of us on flute parts.

Speaking of solfege, I used to be able to sing straight from shape-note music…I need to get back into that too…solfege would probably help due to the universal fingering of the whistle.

15

i’m enjoying hearing everyone else’s joys and tribulation of our most beautiful (and often maligned) ministry. you all have some special challenges and benefits that don’t happen to come our way. just so everyone knows our group has it’s shortcomings, our folk group’s favorite mistake is to begin a song in more than one key. that is painful to hear and always a bit of a panic to find which instrument is in the wrong key.

funny story: a couple of months ago we heard this loud knocking kind of sound while we played a song. it sounded like a kid banging the kneeler or a book to the beat of the music. it stopped at the end of the song. i learned over to our keyboard player and asked her which second voice she was using. she checked, it was “fireworks.”

yes, i do know where cheaspake and marmet are. i’m on the other side of kanawha county

16

Morgan, check out this website for people who play whistles in church.

http://praisewhistlers.org/pwboard/index.php

17

Thanks! I’ve got it in my Bookmarks now. It’s amazing how much stuff is out there if you only run across the right people. :slight_smile:

18

This bit’s timely for me. Just the other day a guitarist was asking if my D flute and C pipes were in ‘concert C’. I blinked a bit. “No, concert pitch is always D. Same goes for the pipes. Yer C set’s a ‘flat set’, and a D set’s a ‘concert set’. D flutes get called ‘concert flutes’,” I replied from the dark streets of my ITM ghetto. This went around and around for a bit until I finally realised he basically meant ‘tuned to A440’. “Sure enough, easily done; that’s why the flute has a tuning slide,” I assured him, “but I can’t vouch for the pipes. Haven’t really had to care until now.” They were indeed flat by a few cents, but, hey. The set was in tune with itself. :wink:

Anyway, now I know how to interpret ‘concert C’.

Edit: Ooookaaay, now. Just read the link to the Flute Forum and am now seeing why Boehm fluters say ‘C flutes’ for what I’d call a ‘D flute with a C foot’. Sigh. I’m not gonna argue any more. Tomayto, tomahto.

19

Yeah, Nano, the terminology is actually fairly rational. Because the whistle, simple flute, and chanter are essentially diatonic instruments, it makes sense to label them according to which natural scale they play. That’s the key characteristic. In many (but not all) cases, the bell note is also the lowest note of the natural scale.

On the classical side, the instruments are chromatic, and conceptually there’s no natural scale. The lowest note or bell note may not correspond to any particular scale. And the key characteristic is how an instrument sounds in relation to other instruments. So it makes sense to label them in relation to piano pitch = concert pitch. The piano becomes the universal “reference standard”.

So the test is simple. Just play what you consider to be a “C” on your instrument. Whatever piano-equivalent pitch comes out is then the key or pitch of that instrument. Play a “C” on a tenor sax or trumpet, and you match a Bb on the piano. Voilà, those are Bb instruments. Play a “C” on a French horn or English horn, and a piano F comes out, so they’re F instruments, and so on.

Play a “C” on silver Boehm flute or oboe, and a C comes out. So they’re C instruments. And C instruments are also referred to as “concert pitch” instruments. The note you play is what you get. The other instruments are referred to as “transposing instruments”. The note you play is some other note on the piano.

So if you play a “C” on a D whistle, the piano note you get is also a C natural. Thus in classical terms, the D whistle is a C instrument or “concert pitch instrument”. A D whistle, Boehm flute and oboe can read the same notes off a sheet of music, and they’ll all be playing the same pitches (or octave equivalents).

But if you play a “C” on a C whistle, the piano note you get is actually a … Bb. So the C whistle is actually a “Bb instrument”. A C whistle, Bb trumpet and Bb soprano saxophone can read the same notes off a sheet of music. And so on.

So as a quick rule, just take the key of an ITM wind instrument and lower it a whole step to get its concert pitch equivalent. A D chanter is a “concert C” instrument. A G whistle is a “concert F” instrument. A Bb flute is a “concert Ab” instrument. Etc.

There you go. Now everyone is on the same page. :slight_smile:

20

great…so what’s the next chapter? :smiling_imp: