Dumb question #1: If a D whistle wants to play along with a C instrument like the flute, does the written music need to be transposed for either instrument, or can they both play along happily reading off the same score?
It depends. Do you mean like an Irish flute pitched in C, or a regular Bohem Flute?
In truth, the D whistle is what’s called a C standard, just like Oboe, Flute, Recorder, Piano. When they say it’s a ‘D’ whistle, it means that the lowest note it can play is a D. So basically any flute can play along with you because they are all C-standard. However, if it’s an open-hole ‘C’ flute, the person playing may have to do some cross fingering, but if it’s a regular Bohem flute, there wouldn’t be any problem. They’d just have to play in the same key you’re playing in.
Hope that helps, and I hope I didn’t confuse you. 
whitenite
The “C” major scale doesn’t have any sharps or flats (c,d,e,f,g,a,b,c) but the “D” major scale whistle has 2 sharps (d,e,f#,g,a,b,c#,d). Playing the c natural is fairly easy on the d whistle( oxxooo or ooooo )but the f natural( xxxxo or xxxxox )is sometimes difficult in fast reels and jigs.
There is of course 1 octave seperation between the “C” flute and the “d” whistle. Because the accuracy of most notes on the keyless whistle depends on the player,sometimes the more accurate flute player can take offence to slightly sour notes. Don’t let them “bully” you though! Your instrument has a greater range.
[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-03-25 14:59 ]
Be careful not to confuse two things: (1) The difference between how an instrument is written and how it sounds, (2) the key of a diatonic (non-chromatic) instrument.
(1) Some instruments are written differently than they sound. For instance, if a trumpet player plays the note “c” in trumpet sheet music, the sound he makes is actually a Bb. Same for trombones, Euphoniums (most), tubas, flugelhorns. Clarinets write “c” but sound Eb, French horns are in F, I believe, etc etc. When a written “c” sounds like a c, the instrument is said to be “in c”. (To memorize: the written note “c” sounds like the note designating the instrument, eg. Eb-clarinet.)
(2) Some instruments cannot (easily) play all half-tones and therefore cannot play in all keys. This has nothing to do with notation. The whistle belongs in this category: It is most comfortable in D, followed by G (and related keys).
The D-whistle is a C instrument, because if you play from music a written “c” will sound a c.
If your C flute is also a C instrument (sounds the notes as written), you can play off the same music (without transposing). It doesn’t mean though that you’re going to be able to keep up if the piece you’re trying to play is in Eb-major.
On 2002-03-25 12:56, witenite wrote:
Dumb question #1: If a D whistle wants to play along with a C instrument like the flute, does the written music need to be transposed for either instrument, or can they both play along happily reading off the same score?
I think the simple answer to this question is “yes” - provided that neither is a “transposing” instrument.
In other words, if when the first player plays a “D” on the score what comes out of his instrument is a “D”, and the second player likewise, then she’ll be right mate.
PS After posting this I see that our resident incisive mind Bloomfield has already addressed the question more thoroughly than myself. But my answer is simpler.
[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-03-25 15:40 ]
How come you can say the same thing quicker and better than I, Stevie? 
On 2002-03-25 15:39, Bloomfield wrote:
How come you can say the same thing quicker and better than I, Stevie? >
I’m not sure about better, but quicker is wrong. It took me much longer to compose my reply, otherwise I would have got there first! Cheers, S
ggggggggggeeeeeeeeez I am sure confused. WOuldnt it just be easier to get a c whistle (AND a great excuse too)?
dd, tell us what music you want to play (how many sharps or flats) and what the lowest note on it is. Then we’ll tell you what whistle to use and how to transpose it.
Better yet, play by ear and don’t worry about stupid notation…
On 2002-03-25 19:46, dd wrote:
ggggggggggeeeeeeeeez I am sure confused. WOuldnt it just be easier to get a c whistle (AND a great excuse too)?
You would think so, but it’s not. As others have said, the D whistle is actually a C instrument. Due to it’s construction, though, its has a certain set of scales that are natural to it: D, G, B minor, E minor. The same is true of pennywhistles in other keys; they are all C instruments that are limited to a certain set of scales.
So, if a whistler with D whistle and a flutist are playing a piece in D, G, B minor, or E minor, they can read from the same score. If the flutist decides that they should play a piece in C, the whistler either has to do a lot of half-holing or get a different whistle, with a C whistle being the logical choice, because its scales are C, F, D minor, and G minor. However, the whistler would not read from the C score. The whistler would read from a D score. Why? Again, it has to do with the construction of the whistle. 6 holes covered on the D whistle produces a D; 6 holes covered on the C whistle produces a C. So, if the whistler plays from a D score with a C whistle, the music will come out in C.
The “Deciphering Whistle Keys” page at the C&F site explains this topic in detail and has a great chart that you can use to determine which whistle you need for which keys.
As an aside, I really confused a guitar player with this stuff this weekend. I pulled out the music for “Plastic Jesus” and said that I would like to play it in F, because on the whistle it sounded a little better in F than it did in C. So, I put an F score on the ground in front of him (we were camping), put a G score in front of myself, and pulled out my C whistle. He looked over and noticed that my score had one sharp in the key signature instead of one flat like his and said “How is that going to work?” I said “G played on a C whistle comes out in F. It’s kinda like a capo on the guitar.”
Thornton, not every whistler does it the way you do. Your strategy is to say “black dot right below the bottom line of the staff = xxx xxx; black dot on the center line of the staff = xoo ooo.” But that’s not the only way to do it.
Some whistlers will actuall play all whistles as c-instruments though: They will play a written D as a D, no matter what the fingerin required. So, on a D-whistle, they finger xxx xxx, on a C-whistle, they finger xxx xxo, and on an G-whistle, they finger xxo ooo. And it saves the transposing-into-D step. This is how I play C whistle, although I will usually transpose for other keys. My favorite strategy is to memorize the tune and not worry about notation (anymore).
Best,
On 2002-03-26 11:45, Bloomfield wrote:
Thornton, not every whistler does it the way you do. Your strategy is to say “black dot right below the bottom line of the staff = xxx xxx; black dot on the center line of the staff = xoo ooo.” But that’s not the only way to do it.
This is true.
Some whistlers will actuall play all whistles as c-instruments though: They will play a written D as a D, no matter what the fingerin required. So, on a D-whistle, they finger xxx xxx, on a C-whistle, they finger xxx xxo, and on an G-whistle, they finger xxo ooo. And it saves the transposing-into-D step.
Yes, this approach does save the transposing step, but it means you have to learn a different set of fingerings for each whistle.
I have tried this, and after a couple of measures my fingers get all discombobulated. When I see the black dot immediately below the bottom staff line, all my fingers go down. When I see the dot on the second line, my top three fingers go down. It’s conditioning, I guess.
This is how I play C whistle, although I will usually transpose for other keys.
So, you’ve been able to learn two sets of fingerings, one for D and one for C, but not any others?
My favorite strategy is to memorize the tune and not worry about notation (anymore).
I’m not sure how that would help me. When I hear a D, all my fingers go down. (B. F. Skinner would be proud.)
Funny thing is I am a WHIZZ at transposing keys on the guitar and banjo. and YEEEEES withOUT a capo/ But the whistle talk here has confused me. I think that I will just play them by ear. OR play them on something else to get the tune and then whistle them. (the COWARDS WAY OUT)
It also depends on whether you are playing alone or with a group. Here at home I pick up my favourite whistle and play whatever tune comes to mind regardless of the key using the fingering as if I was doing it in the key it was written in.
However, when I am playing with our band, if a song is in Bb then I play my Bb whistle with xxx xxx as Bb or the note on the middle line of the treble clef staff in written “piano” music.
Not that this actually means anything, just that I thought I would post my views!
BTW, ThortonRose and Bloomfield, you both have wonderful advice that I really appreciate on most topics! Thanks!
Deb
I must confess I play, lo these many years, but for group lesson sessions with Bill Ochs (all done with D whistles), alone for my amusement and don’t really have access or time for playing with others (although I’d love to do that at some point). I therefore, just learn tunes and then play them on various key whistles with the same fingering. The transposition thing has always confused me a bit and I really appreciate your exchanges wherein I feel each time I pick up a speck of understanding. Thanks guys. Philo
Bloomfield,
Clarinets are B-flat instruments…not E flat.
Just to clarify,
Andrea ~*~
Ah, but there are Eb clarinets also. The standard clarinet is in Bb though.
On 2002-03-28 11:31, PhilO wrote:
I must confess I play, lo these many years, but for group lesson sessions with Bill Ochs (all done with D whistles), alone for my amusement and don’t really have access or time for playing with others (although I’d love to do that at some point). I therefore, just learn tunes and then play them on various key whistles with the same fingering. The transposition thing has always confused me a bit and I really appreciate your exchanges wherein I feel each time I pick up a speck of understanding. Thanks guys. Philo
I’d just like to second Phil’s thanks here. I can transpose on paper, and I’m starting to get the hang of where the different keys sit on different whistles, but it’s still nowhere near easy for me. The “specks of understanding” do add up though.
Ok, I am gonna try and add my two cents worth, in the hopes that some mysteries into transposing and non-transposing instruments be revealed.
First off, why do some instruments need to be tranposed. (this will probably be my thesis if/when I get my ph. d in music) I have yet to have a music teacher understand let alone answer this question… but after much soul searching and brass playing, here is my effort at explaining:
All brass instruments are fingered the same way. Ditto for Saxes, Clarinets, and so on… (each way being unique to the family of instruments) You play the first valve on a brass to get a certain pitch… Well, the key that a brass instrument is in, is the key (not the base note, but rather the overall series of harmonics that can be produced) that is produced when no valves are pressed down. A trumpet (standard) is in Bb because of this…
So instead of making it hard for instrument players to switch between instruments, they decided to write each series of harmonics (and resulting valve positions) the SAME WAY! This means that an F on any instrument (save lower valved brass–see below) is that same fingering and so on and so forth…
Now the reed instruments… and even flutes..
Reed instruments work the same way (clarinets and saxes having the same fingering I think…) except that the lowest pitch determines key because a reed and flute instrument makes sounds because of a different physical reason, making the lowest note, the lowest note… (the redundancy is intentional!!) This means that those sax players, and clarinet players didn’t want to have to make up new fingerings for an F or an E or etc… so they declared (I am sure there is another reason for why, but who cares) that such a fingering (say all holes covered )would be a Bb on all the instruments…
A tenor Sax player sees a C, fingers and C and sounds like a Bb, an alto sax sees a C, fingers a C, and sounds like an Eb
( a whistle player sees a C, fingers a C, and sounds a C (d whistle), if it is a Bb whistle then it is an A, or if it is an F he sounds an Eb )
So a Tenor Sax player reading music in the key of C would play with an Alto Say playerplaying mucic in the key of G and with a french horn player playing music in F and a flute player playing in Bb.
So how does this relate to whistle players?
Well… Whistles have yet to have the declaration made ( or even the realization that they are instruments) for them.
Sooooo here is what I propose… D whistles have the standard fingering positions… In other words whenever for whatever key of whistle you see a D (space below the staff) the fingering is xxx xxx (on ANY whistle). So from now on, all whistle music will be written in the key of D, and whatever whistle is specified on top is the key you use.
This method has been proposed elsewhere by somebody else… but what may not be realized is that this is exactly what was done for brass players long time ago…
for example “So this symphony is in Eb and you want me to play in Eb eh? Ok I will read my music like I normally would (in C) and simply put in this length of tubing to make it a different key.”
That is essentially what a lot of whistle players already do…
So if you have a song that is being played on a flute, fiddle, oboe, bassoon (if you like bass clef) viola, guitar of any other concert pitched instrument then make sure the sheet music is in D, and then simply switch whistles to match the key of the song… or pick it up by ear!
Nico
Now about those lower brass and other exceptions to the rules. First off, because all lower brass instruments are the same key ( except trombone) they decided not to adhere to the rules above in writing sheet music. I mean it is in bass clef already so you have to transpose mentally already if you are coming from a trebl instrument, so why bother transposing fingering systems. This explains why baritone and euphonium can play either as concert pitched instruments in bass clef, or read trumpet music in treble clef (I did both) The double french horn is another exception because the addition of a fourth valve actually switches the instrument from F to trumpet Key (Bb or really C if the original music is in Bb --sorry)
And finally my explanation of where the fingering systems came from: RECORDERS!!! No really, recorders, and oboes and flutes are the likeliest source of where reed instrument fingerings came from, and why clarinet isn’t pitched in concert ( ie why all holes covered doesn’t mean Bb instead of C)Sorry if the lowest note on a clarinet isn’t Bb I have good sources that say that a sax fingering system is like a recorder, and clarinet!
[ This Message was edited by: NicoMoreno on 2002-03-28 17:42 ]
On 2002-03-28 17:38, NicoMoreno wrote:
…Now about those lower brass and other exceptions to the rules. First off, because all lower brass instruments are the same key ( except trombone) they decided not to adhere to the rules above in writing sheet music. I mean it is in bass clef already so you have to transpose mentally already if you are coming from a trebl instrument, so why bother transposing fingering systems. This explains why baritone and euphonium can play either as concert pitched instruments in bass clef, or read trumpet music in treble clef (I did both) The double french horn is another exception because the addition of a fourth valve actually switches the instrument from F to trumpet Key (Bb or really C if the original music is in Bb --sorry)
As a trombonist, I think you haven’t got the part about lower brass quite right. Baritone/Euphonium players are usually a bit dumber even than trumpet players, which is why they can’t be expected to figure out the intricacies of a slide. They also can’t be confused about reading music if you want them to be of any use in the band/orchestra, which is why they read easy treble-clef “trumpet” music. Of course, there are exceptions, and I have personally met two euphonium players who could read bass-clef (with just a little help). I’ve never even heard of one who could read tenor-clef, or draw one for that matter.
Heeheehee.
[Running and ducking]