Olwell flute discussion: Round 2!!

Irish Flute
1

Ok, folks. I appreciated your thoughts on the Nicholson vs. Pratten issue immensely. I’ve decided to stick with my original idea: Nicholson unlined (for that yummy, super wooden sound like the unlined blackwood Ward I play) design.

Question for all Olwell owners or those who’ve played them: What tonal qualities do you feel the wood in your Olwell provides? Like, blackwood is darker, cocus is brighter, boxwood is more mellow, etc., etc.

I’m not really considering boxwood because of my climate (desert). I was also told by a reputable maker at Willie Week a few years ago that boxwood is fragile and prone to warp.

So that leaves me with blackwood (my first idea) or cocuswood. What are some of the important differences or qualities you feel are associated with the different types of tone wood?

Again, your thoughts are much appreciated!

2

I’ve liked blackwood Olwells, but they haven’t seemed to me any better than my blackwood Hammy. But I have been highly attracted to a particular cocus Olwell. I seem to like the sound, just afraid of the consequences.

I’m just not sure I’m willing to risk the possibility of revealing a (not uncommon) allergy to cocus. John Skelton uses the Super Glue technique to protect his lips from the area around the embouchure, but I think still gets some reaction to contact with the toneholes. Some people who do develop a problem with cocus may then react more quickly to blackwood as well.

Take a look at this thread: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16660

particularly Sturob’s post on the first page. You’ll find other references on the forum.

Kevin Krell

3

Hei,

More recently, I have taken a long look at wooden Hammig Boehm flutes, in Blackwood.

Is your Hammig a Boehm system?

Just curious…

:slight_smile:

4

April Fool’s Day was yesterday.

The flute is by Hammy Hamilton (Samuel Colin Hamilton).

Kevin Krell

5

My error in interpretation, please.

Hammig is therefore another matter.

I thank you.

6

I had a bad reaction to the lacquer Pat O puts on his
boxwood flutes, as did my wife and several others.
It really became a problem. Boxwood itself is
fine. Talked to Pat about it and maybe he’s changed it.
He doesn’t want to do plain boxwood, feels it needs
protection, but plain
boxwood is OK, in fact–Casey Burns’ boxwood flutes
are plain, I think, and they are very good.

I think one can’t go wrong with blackwood.
It’s very tough and dense, it has a lovely
dark sound, and it looks very good.
The chance of an allergic reaction to
blackwood are much lower than to
cocus.

I think the fragility and bendability of boxwood
are somewhat over rated–I’ve had several boxwood flutes
and never had any trouble at all. But surely it’s
less stable than blackwood. Mellow is
a good word. I can’t say I was terribly in love
with Pat’s all wood boxwood flute, in any case.

ARe you going all-wood? There will be limited
options for tuning. I had a trouble playing
the flute with others on account of it.

7

blackwood it is.

8

Thanks you guys!

And yes Jim, I am planning on the partially lined headjoint with tuning slide, rather than the fully lined headjoint with tuning slide.

Allergy issues aside, does anyone just worship the tone of cocus? Cocusflute, mebbe? :stuck_out_tongue:

9

This thread might be of interest to you since it discusses Olwells and Cocus wood:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=35233&highlight=cocus

10

Interesting, the need for a hard finish on boxwood, the three antique boxwood flutes, the Potter, F,H,&P and the Goulding D’Almaine have no finish on them, save for 180 years of patina, and they look fine- a nice golden hue.
The Peter Noy Boxwood I saw a while back, looked lie it had a finish of some kind, does anyone know?

11

I love Blackwood

I used very fine steel wool to rub off the lacquer around the emboucher on my boxwood Olwell headjoint, since I reacted to mine as Jim described.

I have never tried cocus

The flutes I seem to prefer playing have all wood headjoints or partially lined headjoints, now that I think of it.


M

12

Hello
Be careful when you’re choosing between blackwood and cocus wood. I had a dilemma recently when choosing between the two for a new flute. I really wanted cocus (looks, quality, scarcity) but having never played a cocus flute, i had no idea whether or not i would take an allergic reaction. You don’t want to order a cocus flute, wait a few years and then not be able to play it!! Then there is the fact that good quality cocus seems to be more difficult to source these days. I opted for ABL, i’m used to it and i agree with what you say regarding boxwood.

David

13

You know, my boxwood Murray doesn’t really look like it’s got a finish on it either. It’s closest in color to your Goulding, although maybe a bit more red than caramel. Some places around where hands, fingers, etc. go are darker than others; maybe that’s why Patrick prefers to seal them?

BTW, did they fume boxwood flutes in the days of yore?

14

The boxwood Murray I worked on did not look finished either. The oil of your hands the heat will also darken the wood. I have a couple of antique flutes that were stained, I do not know if they were fumed or not. I think that was the prefered way of staining in the days of old.

15

If by fume you could refer to an ancient process of hardening wood by heat, then, as an educated guess, flutemakers of yore likely did at least experiment with such a process.

16

I love it when someone (thanks KKrell!) quotes that old taxonomy message of mine. Ah, it brings me back.

Further thoughts of mine . . . first, the lacquer-boxwood-Olwell question is interesting. My boxwood Olwell (see my little pic at left) isn’t lacquered, as far as I can tell. Maybe it is. I haaven’t reacted to it, in any case.

As for cocus: I’ve heard more than one person (woodwindythings makers) say they feel like it’s the most “musical” of timbers. Even tapping a billet makes a musical resonance. And, the timber actually has a little grain to it that you can see, making it visibly more interesting than blackwood. I think it’s a great timber, but I also will agree that a lot of it is psychoacoustic or psychosomatic or psychowhatever. Can I hear a difference between me on a cocus flute and me on a blackwood flute? Yes. Is there? Who knows.

Boxwood flutes are also nice. The warping problem is real, but I don’t feel personally like boxwood is any more delicate than other timbers. A lot of it warps and doesn’t crack. It’s quite porous and is probably the only timber that actually ACTUALLY benefits from being oiled. And, like I’ve suggested before, my own opinion is that it’s Nature’s Hypoallergenic Timber. Find some flamed boxwood (with a distinctive grain) and you’ve got yourself a real looker.

From my own personal (albeit limited) experience, I don’t think there’s any real way to predict who’ll be allergic to cocus and who won’t. I would guess (based solely on the taxonomy and its genetic implications) that if you’ve got a peanut allergy, no rosewood/cocus is safe. But otherwise? I’ve personally got horrible seasonal allergies. I live on steroid nasal spray. But do flutes bother me? No. I’ve even got marked dermatographia (a mild skin quasi-allergic phenomenon) but I could probably wear a cocus . . . well, a cocus shirt and I’d be OK. So who knows?

The other caveat is that I don’t have any way of knowing the incidence of cocus allergy. Anecdotally, it SEEMS common, but that could simply reflect that pasty super-allergic asthmatics spend a lot of time on C&F complaining that they react to thus-and-such. (JOKE, people!) Seriously, who knows. Could be that they’re more vocal. I sure would be if I waited 7 years for a flute that gave me hives. Anecdotally, it seems like many people who work around blackwood/cocus/cocobolo dust (if not all) eventually have trouble tolerating it.

So . . . ? Pick your favorite timber! And, be prepared that cocus or even blackwood COULD make you allergic. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Stuart

17

It’s a truism that the better one gets at doing something, the harder it gets to achieve further improvement. Ace bicycle racers buy $12,000 graphite bikes in an effort to make that last 5% improvement that might result in the shaving of a few hundredths of a second off their lap times, whereas it doesn’t really matter what I ride; it’s still hard to get up the hill I live on because I haven’t done the training. Put me on the featherweight race yoke, and watch me make a mockery of its advantages over a normal bike!

With no offense intended to anyone, I’m fairly confident in stating that the average player isn’t pushing their flute anywhere near the limit at which the differences between cocus and blackwood would become significant. Blackwood is also a very musical wood, and produces a lovely chime when tapped. Much is made of the differences between the two woods, but at the end of the day, they’re more like than dislike.

As cocus wood is very nearly extinct, I’m surprised at how many people are willing to overlook that fact when choosing the wood for their new instrument. I beileve that a bit of honesty is in order, and I use the word “you” in the rhetorical sense when proposing this question, to wit: have you really done all the work to get your playing to the point where a cocus flute would provide a significant improvement in the tone you produce?

18

Rob speaks the truth. So does Sturob. On the other hand I fail to see in what way Cork’s guess –

If by fume you could refer to an ancient process of hardening wood by heat, then, as an educated guess, flutemakers of yore likely did at least experiment with such a process.

is educated. Fuming is a process used to darken the wood. Fuming has never been done to make the wood harder.

http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/techniques/oakfuming/

19

Cocus is endangered in its natural habitat, true, because its natural habitat is going away. In the southern US, you can get cocus (Brya ebenus) at nurseries. Cheaply.

It’s plentiful other places, and if I’m not mistaken all commercially available cocus in the US is from places other than Jamaica and Cuba.

Here’s a picture of a nursery in Florida which sells cocus trees for landscaping.

I found another site that sells saplings of cocus for $30, and they’re in stock now!

So . . .

Stuart

20

Isn’t nitric acid used for boxwood? I have a recorder done that way I’ve a vague memory that the maker mentioned acid.