Things we tell Newbies

Irish Flute
1

When I was getting into Irish flute, in Australia in the early 1970’s, there were no sources of information. These days, a Newbie only has to ask on these pages and they get inundated with tons of specific and contradictory advice. Get a Tipple, cries one, I recommend the Folk Flute says another, a third chimes in that a Boehm flute is the way to go, another touts the advantages of a 19th century original. I’m not sure that all this info is better than none! I wonder if we should just pause and have a discussion about what we’re telling these innocents.

(Let me jump in first though and say this is not a commercial post promoting my flutes. They are safely priced well beyond the limits beginners tend to set for themselves, unless something has given them more than average confidence that success is within their grasp and that a high-end axe will hack more quickly through the remaining hurdles. I’m actually hoping the relative peace and quiet of the current recession will let me catch up on other obligations!)

Presumably we want these newbies to catch on as quickly and efficiently as possible. We want them to be playing in tune, with a dark and focussed tone, in the manner to which we are accustomed. So, shouldn’t we be recommending to them flutes that encourage that?

Here’s an example that might illustrate my point. If a beginner acquires an early 19th century flute, it will probably exhibit the usual flat foot syndrome and stretched scale. That’s a lot for a beginner to deal with.

If however they start on a plain cylindrical flute (eg poly or bamboo), it will have a very flat second octave, requiring a lot of lipping up, or hard blowing to deal with. Again a lot for a beginner to deal with, and perhaps some bad habits learned along the way.

Interestingly, and perhaps significantly, these two effects are opposing. In the early 19th original case, the bottom octave is flat; in the case of the cylinder flute, it’s sharp. Both can’t be right! Indeed, we know that when the tuning is significantly out, performance as well as tuning suffer. Tone isn’t dark and focussed, it’s flabby and raw.

My instinct therefore would be to steer newbies away from directions that might lure them into bad habits and that might slow their development. I’d be hoping they could find flutes that were in tune without gymnastics, and as similar as possible in blowing approach and tone as can be achieved at a price newbies can afford.

Thoughts?

Terry

2

Hi,

I find this a very interesting topic. First, let me say I’m a regular (though very quiet) reader of this board and although I have passed the newbie threshold I’m still a beginner and will still be for a few years to come…

I’ve been amazed (and somewhat puzzled) by the way newbies are flooded with contradictory (and sometimes useless) information. “I play flute X and I highly recommend it”. “Oh, wait, I’ve been playing for 2 months and you can’t go wrong with Y”, and so on and so forth.

I know some people here think that newbies can be of good advice to one another because they understand each other’s struggles but frankly, if you were to buy a car and had no idea what to buy, would you really seek advice from someone who just got their driving licence?

Anyway, my own experience after over a year of learning the instrument is that I’m not (yet) concerned so much about intonation, but rather about tone (actually it’s obsessive). I think (and others may disagree) that woodwinds with poor tone are really unpleasant to listen to, no matter how in tune you are or how fast your fingers move. Plus, I’m not convinced it is really possible to have the embouchure sensitivity it takes to play in tune without being able to produce a good tone in the first place.

Another aspect is that some people (I’m one of them) don’t play only Irish music. It’s frustrating and limiting to play on a keyless flute when you’re used to and/or need a fully chromatic instrument.

So I wouldn’t rule out a good keyed antique in working condition as a first choice. In fact I find it’s very sensible, provided one can afford it. I think budget is really the most important factor to take into account.

Maybe we focus too much on flute owning and not enough about flute playing? After all, driving a better car doesn’t make you a better driver. But it does make the driving much more pleasant, doesn’t it? :stuck_out_tongue:

Cheers,
Julien

3

I agree with the “It’s not the Bow, It’s the Archer” approach to buying toys; but at the same time, a really good archer can shoot well with just about any bow while the reverse isn’t true. I like to find a middle ground e.g. “most forgiving for newbie mistakes” position if that’s what it takes me to maximize my learning as well as makes me enjoy the process.

4

Very few people here would recommend getting a boehm to start with. But if you’ve already got one, as in the case of the thread you’re referring to, why not just play it?

5

I started learning to play flute on an aircraft carrier off the coast of North Viet Nam in the early 1970’s. There was no one, of the 5,000 on the boat, that would admit to ever having played one. To say nothing of the threats, etc…

I’ve recommended all three at one time or another. Depends, budget on the 1st two, the Boehm was just 'cause it was there. (Hi Monkey!)

not an issue with the Tipple if you get the wedge.

okay, get the lip plate on the Tipple.

occasionally yes, disconcerting things, ain’t they?

6

Hmmmmm… This one could be a touchy one. I am going to think about this first before I rattle off my thoughts :really:

7

As a Newbie, I would like to share a few thoughts…

I picked up the flute as an adult…about 2 years ago…starting with the boehm flute. As my playing has improved, I’ve started to explore other styles of playing…one thing leads to another…and here I am quickly collecting whistles and most recently a used folk flute (which should arrive shortly). It’s a hobby gone awry!

The unfortunate thing is that in my location, trad music is not as common and there are no stores stocking any quality instruments. I’m basically on my own, so this forum and some of the members have been very helpful in steering me in the right direction to make an informed choice (and not be burned on ebay). I admit that the amount information can be overwhelming. I’ve also made a few mistakes, but without major consequences. My point is that the information IS helpful…we just need to use good judgment with all that information.

I understand all your points regarding playing with beautiful tone, in key at every octave,etc…but truely…as long as it’s a quality instrument (of which I’ve read there’s many, and at all price points)…is it the flute or the flutist that needs to adapt?

I expected that when I picked up my first flute that I would be able to play a song like I can on the whistle or boehm flute (don’t laugh). I’m sure with time and practise I’ll be able to reach AND cover those tone holes. Then I’ll worry about playing in tune, with that dark and focused tone.

I’ve a long way to go…but at least now I am aware of all those bad habits that probably will develop anyway…

8

Personally, I prefer more info to less, even when some is contradictory. When I was starting out, I learned a tremendous amount from browsing these threads, and learned quickly to separate the wheat from the chaff. When I chime in now, it’s only to summarize my own experiences and opinions. I don’t always add ‘YMMV’, but it’s implied.

9

I would tell them “Buy a Terry McGee… can’t go wrong there.”

:party:

10

Let me touch on a contrary line of thought.

For instance, even though an international tuning standard of A=440 was adopted in about the year 1940, the internal tuning of Boehm flutes remained a somewhat troublesome thing, at least until an English fellow by the name of Albert Cooper came along, who by the early 1960’s had by a series of more minor tweaks reconfigured, or redesigned, the modern Boehm flute, effectively correcting many of the previous tuning troubles. Well, his redesign was so successful that by the 1980’s or so virtually EVERY major flute making company had adopted “their own” version of Mr. Cooper’s work, a situation which remains a part of the Boehm flute making industry to this day.

Basically, Albert Cooper’s design made flute playing much easier.

However, there’s another school of thought which says that maybe Mr. Cooper’s design could have made flute playing too easy! This school says that because the new flute can be played so much more easily, a student simply doesn’t need to develop much in the way of embouchure flexibility, and therefore effectively looses much in the way of being able to vary the tone of their flute. The older flutes called for a player to make various corrections at the embouchure, and thereby a player inherently learned about the various ways to manipulate their embouchure, and therefore both the tuning, and the tonal qualities, of a flute.

So, perhaps the “easy” road might not be such a successful shortcut, after all.

11

Shhh!

Terry

12

Cooper wasn’t the only principal in this endeavour, although he ended up copping the credit. Trevor Wye has given an account of how he (Wye), William Bennet and Elmer Cole at least were a primary part of the redevelopment.

However, there’s another school of thought which says that maybe Mr. Cooper’s design could have made flute playing too easy! This school says that because the new flute can be played so much more easily, a student simply doesn’t > need > to develop much in the way of embouchure flexibility, and therefore effectively looses much in the way of being able to vary the tone of their flute. The older flutes called for a player to make various corrections at the embouchure, and thereby a player inherently learned about the various ways to manipulate their embouchure, and therefore both the tuning, and the tonal qualities, of a flute.

So, perhaps the “easy” road might not be such a successful shortcut, after all.

That’s of course a claim made often in Irish flute circles, but to my knowledge rarely in classical circles. A variant of the old “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” argument. It’s my view that we must discount it as a nonsensical furphy in the absense of any proof. I stand ready and willing to test any evidence to the contrary!

Even if the argument had merit, I would argue that loading that extra hurdle on to the beginner offends against the Bill of Rights (1689) in regard to Cruel or Unnatural Punishment!

Terry

13

:laughing:

In essence, I agree with you!

14

I started playing the flute a few years ago (in 2005 I guess) and I made my first flute in a instrument making class with pipemaker Andreas Rogge. Tuning wasn’t great and my work was a bit crude, but that thing worked, I got notes from it and they were more or less in tune. I was more of a piper those days and didn’t want to focus on the flute, but when I realized that full time piping is not for me, I decided to switch to the flute. I ordered an eight-keyer in fall of 2006 (because I wanted the real deal, and prices were good) and started to play my selfmade flute more seriously. It wasn’t perfect, but it was a flute! When the eight-keyer arrived, I was good enough to switch to it without many difficulties. Later that year a flute playing pal from Germany offered me his old flute which fit me better, esp. due to the slender profile (short fingers). I still have my first flute and like to play it from time to time, for some reason the tuning also improved. Or is it me?

That said, I think it really doesn’t matter what flute one starts on. It doesn’t matter if it’s conical, cylindrical, parabol or square (okay, square is no good). It needs an embouchure hole and six holes that are tuned well. Not perfect, but well. The first thing is learning the embouchure, and a newbie flooter will probably not take part in a session for the first few months, so tuning isn’t so important, and the very most beginning players will opt for something better, nicer, prettier after some months of playing anyway. The only two things a flute-less (!) beginner should avoid - in my opinion! - is getting a flute off ebay without knowing what he/she is going to buy, and getting a Böhm flute if he/she wants to play irish music on it exclusively. If someone already has a Böhm flute and wants to play irish music on it, why not, it works, I do it myself.

Of course we all can advise the newbies to buy this and that, but after all I guess there’s no flute on the market that can’t get you started (save some stuff available on ebay…). Even the best flute will be hard to play for a total beginner, but that’s life.

15

It seems to me the best advice is to invest in a conical wooden flute (or perhaps a delrin flute)
that’s somewhat in the neighborhood of the standard ITM flute (supposing the newbie is interested
in ITM). Flutes like the FF and the Sweetheart sound good, they are in tune, the holes
are reasonably comfortable. This maximizes the probability of success, these flutes
are worth keeping indefinitely, if one wishes to sell them they do sell. It’s hard enough
to play a good flute at the beginning and struggling with a less good one
does not increase prospects of success. Some of us did it that way but
I daresay we never hear from most of the people who gave up.

A lot of people waste money trying to save money. Also a lot of folks are going for delrin who
don’t need it–though there may be good delrin flutes that are attractive because
of the low price. But the FF and the Sweetheart are very tough flutes that
require minimal care.

16

Please excuse me for quoting you out of context, Terry (I’ve been reading too many political comments), but I do appreciate the recommendation.

17

Aww, come on… I’m not that innocent :laughing: !

What Terry started here is a very important step, but one that will be seen as an opened “can of worms” as this thread progresses. I’m as newbie as they get, but I have played the silver (boehm/transverse/etc.) flute for years.

Putting the flute-selection asside, the most sensitive issue when a newbie comes here asking for advice is what they are looking for in terms of quantity of information. Some of them want as much information as possible to help in taking a decision, but some of them get intimidated if you give them more information than what they need. Some of them want all the possibilities while some get confused by contradictory information.

It is important to take the step Terry took, to pause and reflect on what is said to the newcomers that come here with the sparkle in their cyber-eyes asking for guidance in this wonderful world of traditional irish music. There are sensitive and contradictory information on a technical level, but also what each newcomer seek in terms of information for what they need.

–my two cents… it’s Canadian, so it’s not worth much but it’s mine. :smiley:

I did get a Tipple. It should arrive very soon.

18

THINGS WE TELL OLDIES

Take in your slack and get a pair of these

http://tinyurl.com/cglhqs

:laughing:

19

I do think that starting with any relatively in-tune flute is a good idea, but learning any instrument or music takes commitment, patience, hard work and tenacity and the flute choice is secondary to this. A difficult flute may, in fact, help this process (by difficult, I mean embouchure design and flat-foot tuning, not Pakistani knock-off difficult), although, certainly, someone lucky enough to start out learning on a top-shelf flute by a top-shelf maker will benefit directly from that, too. Who these “top-shelf” makers are, of course, is always good for a debate, too, come to think… Commitment, say, on an old German flute may be higher than on a perfectly playable delrin or folk flute, and thus produce a better player. Or not, if the player’s got a good grasp of what they’re going for in the first place and the folk flute they have gets them a decent buzz.

I’ve been on this forum for years and I’ve yet to hear a consensus on by what means a beginner learns quickly and efficiently, whether by “easy” or more difficult embouchure designs, overall flute design, learning all ornaments first or getting the basic tunes or rhythms down first, etc. While it’d be nice (and, presumably, a consensus over basic things is what we’d all like), it is highly unlikely that all or most of the non-beginners here will even agree on what these recommendations are or should be.

Newbies will, unfortunately, have to muddle along until they get it, or something resembling it, just like the rest of us did…

IMHO, of course…

20

I was gonna say something along the lines of what Gordon said. The right flute for a beginner is the one that makes him want to play. In my case, I started out with a couple of flutes I didn’t enjoy, then got a third that was much easier for me to play. After two years of dabbling, I finally began to play, on a flute that most would probably consider inferior to the first two, but I finally stuck with it.

Something else I’m wont to add is that it’s up to the reader to decide what’s good advice and what’s not. If someone discovers this board and immediately posts a question without learning some history of the board and the different posters’ points of view, then follows some bad advice, it’s his own fault. The right way to go about it is to read for a month, or at least read back into the archives to find out a little about the people you’re asking. Only then can you sift through the differing responses with any hope of gauging where your own truth lies.