I’m a musician who gigs on sax and flute, and I’m wanting to add in the irish flute. I’ve been doing my homework here and a fellow chiffer has been extremely helpful in pointing me in the right direction. I’m leaning towards a Delrin flute because of the low maintainance/ durability factor, but I’m stumped on which to get. I see on other threads many recommendations for Copley, or Forbes, or M&E.
I want a flute that will be most like the boehm I’ve spent a lifetime playing- so I’d like the closest embouchure and hole positions to a boehm flute. I also need something that plays in tune. I play with other instruments and singers, so tuning is critical.
I’m also a bit concerned about flexibility in playing in different keys- I guess that would force me to look at a keyed flute. Although at this point it might not be the most critical factor.
Lets see. You are an experienced Boehm flute player and want to play Irish flute. You want something which is as close to a Boehm flute in terms of embouchure and fingering possitions as possible. Also you want to be able to play in odd keys. What exactly is it with the conical simple system flute you’re after? Sounds like you might as well just stick to the Boehm flute and play the tunes you want to play on that. The music won’t be much different just because you have a black, conical flute which looks different than your standard flute, especially if you’re not willing to explore other styles of embouchure cuts. With all due respect, it sounds like you just want to put another instrument on the resumé. But I’d say that going trough all the trouble of learning a new one just isn’t worth it for that reason, you’ll probably be better of focusing on that Boehm flute.
edited to say that a few very good musicians play Irish music on the Boehm flute to great effect, most notably Joanie Madden.
Correct me if I’m wrong, and if so we might one day meet at a session and share a dram of
whisky
My biggest reasons to add the irish flute? The instrument timbre, and the ability to bend/slide notes… but I want an instrument that I can slide into quickly. ( Here’s my story
2 weeks ago, I had no interest in the irish flute- had not a clue about them. But then I got a call to fill in as a literal last minute replacement for a celtic style church gig. I was replacing an irish whistle player who had messed up his hand. So at the rehearsal the producers mentioned that while the flute work was great, it really didn’t have quite the right timbre to give the music that really authentic sound. They asked if I had experience in whistle/recorder/irish flute? I had some recorder experience and actually used it for one tune, but stuck with the flute for everything else. Well, all in all the gig went great. but I’d really like to be a more versatile player to fill more needs.
When you double on several instruments, you simply don’t have the time to master them. That’s why I play yamaha 62 saxes- sop/alto/tenor- they are easy to play, very even intonation, sound great. So I’m kind of looking for the same thing in an irish flute.
You could try to find an antique conical Boehm system flute. Such a thing should sound much like a Pratten or Siccama while being fingered the Boehmish way. Never tried one though.
Thans- Yeah I saw this this thread and am looking at both the Copley and the Forbes carefully. I’m just confused about the embouchure issue since it is kind of hard to tell from the pics I’ve seen.
Sounds like I’m better off with the Forbes but don’t know whether the Copley has different embouchure options.
If you are only looking to be a doubler on the Irish flute, with Boehm requirements, then I would suggest a wooden headjoint for your Boehm flute, and then it will at least sound similar to an Irish flute, if you do your part.
Here is a link for a headjoint that was available here recently:
What shape embouchure are you looking for? If it’s a rounded rectangle like a lot of Boehm flutes, then the Copley is the only one besides McGee to offer one in a Delrin flute, and most wooden Irish flutes for that matter also.
i find it easier to bend notes on the silver flute, and i do finger vibrato on it as well. the only note i cant finger vibrato is the g–looking at the mechanisms, a quick cut with a wire cutter with be all i needed to get that done ( i’d loose F natural, but not f#). i’m trying to figure out a way to design a mechanism to get that key down without loosing f natural.
that being said, of course i’m a pariah, and like a select few, have grown up playing the silver flute for irish music, and am a late comer to this whole “irish flute thing.”
but i would agree, wooden headjoint doesnt cut it. i am in love with my dave copley headjoint (in my avatar), but i dont know how effective it is to sound irish (or the silver flute in general), if you havent been brought up to do it. playing the silver flute in irish music is a lot more difficult than playing the wooden flute in irish music. i have spent years exploring the tonal pallet of the boehm flute, and with the help of my copley headjoint, i can get it to sound like an old, wooden flute: Box . needless to say, it is much easier to just get an old wooden flute and make it sound like an old wooden flute. also, i usually dont go for that sort of sound, just because it’s not really my style.
if most people played my headjoint, it would not sound like a simple system flute. it’s all in the player, and i would agree that a headjoint would not work for this player, because it would seem to not be in this player. i’m not trying to be mean, but the player doesnt seem to want to spend the time to get a wooden flute sound out of a silver flute, and i wouldnt recommend it. it takes much less time to learn the wooden flute. it took me about a good 4 to 6 years of trying (10 years of playing the flute) to get that “wooden sound” you hear in the sound clip, and i have a long way to go. it took me about 6 months to get comfortable on the wooden flute, and 2 years to get to the point where i can pick up either flute and not be able to tell the difference as far as tone control and embouchure goes.
Its clear hes looking for a little “celtic journey” spice for his kit bag.
…
I own both Delrin and wood flutes. I love my Delrin (its a cracking flute… no pun intended ) but I’ve found I just really rather the feeling of wood.
The smell and the warmth just keeps you coming back.
Did someone mention Terry McGee yet?
He crafts good flutes and he offers a square cut emb.
i agree, though–terry can make a flute with the closest embouchure ( http://www.mcgee-flutes.com ). he also offers a simple system flute with an internal boehm bore, which might be what the fellow is looking for. email terry with what you want and he might be able to help you. also check the irish store: https://www.irishflutestore.com/newsite/products.php?c1=55&c2=75
my main irish flute that i take to sessions is delrin, but if i hadnt bought it used, i would have ordered it in wood. it is made by jon c. (a member here), but his list is closed, so you’re out of luck, because they are great flutes. delrin is nice, but why not wood? dave copley’s newest embouchures are very easy to play, and he has a very short wait, as well as many that are available right now if you go to the irish flute store.
One thing that hasn’t really been said clearly here yet is that it isn’t really relevant to look for a similar embouchure cut. Why? Because if you are serious about making a tolerably authentic ITM (or C19th English School) tone (reedy/brassy/hard/full/rich/resonant/over-toney, etc…), you will in any case have to change the way you form your embouchure and address the instrument. Just switching material or even form of instrument will only go part of the way to achieving the “right” sound. If you blow a typical C19th English wooden flute or a modern one design-based thereon/made for ITM with a modern classical style French School embouchure (i.e. your mouth formation, not the cut of the flute’s hole), sure, the wooden, conoid bore will sound different from your metal Boehm, but it won’t sound “authentic”.
In any case, I don’t think there is inherently any major difficulty in blowing a different shape/cut embouchure to what you are used to - if you are any good and have any sensitivity in feeling the response of the instrument (provided it isn’t a duff one that you have to fight with) you will in any case quite naturally adjust your embouchure both consciously and unconsciously and quite quickly won’t have any major issue switching between different instruments with different cuts. After all, orchestral fluters doubling piccolo have to make such switches - and if you are playing single reed instruments too you are already used to having to switch; I think the deadening/stiffening of the lower lip caused by the contact vibration of a sax or clarinet reed would be far more of a problem than the subtle difference between flute embouchures!
Similarly with regard to fingering systems - you are already a multi-system player, so adding one more relatively straightforward system won’t be a major issue - merely one of time to familiarise and transfer/adapt existing skills - and you are kinda already committed to that by the looks of it. I do think, however, given your other woodwind experience and stated usage wishes, that you will find a keyless flute very frustratingly limited very quickly - you might spend your money better on a cheaper end of the market (but decent) antique 8-key rather than a new-made keyless - with care, luck and good advice you can get something usable for similar or only slightly more money than for the kind of keyless you are contemplating, and I endorse Aanvil’s advice not to be afraid of wood - it’s no big deal to look after - mostly doesn’t need any special care… If you buy a keyless, you’ll probably very soon be looking to upgrade. The keyless flutes (and many are very well-made instruments) are fine for folk coming direct to ITM or transferring from whistle, but if you are used to greater chromatic facility you’ll soon be fed up with their limitations. Sure, exploring where those limits drive one in inventiveness etc. is worthwhile if you plan to make the genre your main pursuit (though having a fully keyed Simple System won’t hinder that exploration!), but I don’t think that’s where your coming from/trying to go to??? If church music is your main usage, how much of it, even the pseudo-celtic stuff, is going to be in D, G and the related minors and modes? Judging from the comments of whistlers over on the Whistle Forum who do a lot of that kind of music, they find themselves in need of the full kit of whistles in different keys. Remember a keyless modern ITM flute is VERY diatonic on D! If you’re going to be playing with choirs who seem mostly to use keys in 3 or 4 flats for SATB arrangements, or with soft rock happy-clappy sub-pop group type stuff which is likely to centre on keys like C, A and E, a keyless will hamper you terribly, to the point of uselessness.
As others have said or implied, it’s not so much the instrument as how you play it so far as tone is concerned, though design and material certainly do play a part. The idioms of the playing technique, however, do most certainly work better on Simple System, open-holed and directly fingered instruments. I started on Boehm originally, migrated through wooden Boehm (briefly) and switched to 8-key as it became increasingly apparent to me that it was the correct, necessary, best-suited tool for the kind of music I was playing and the sound I wanted to make.
Lastly, whatever decisions you make about what instrument to buy, search this forum for relevant old threads and check out Terry McGee’s website for advice and information on tone production for ITM and ways to work towards achieving the kind of sound we are all trying to emulate!
Good luck!
P.S. I’ve just read your other thread over on the Whistle Forum - pancelticpiper’s two contributions thereto are spot-on and should mesh with what I’ve written here. I hope it all makes sense!
that is actually a notorious problem. when you first start the piccolo, it is common to be completely unable to play the flute immediately afterwords. although switching between the silver flute and the simple system is quite doable, it does take a lot of practice.
i agree with you that it is no problem to switch between the two over time, but if you have never played a simple system flute, you will very likely be unable to make a noise on one the first time you play one, even if you are a very accomplished silver flute player. the same goes the other way. so, i guess i would say, dont be discouraged if you get an “irish” flute and you cant play a note on it! the embouchure, bore, and finger spacing are all very different.
It sound to me like you need to learn to play Irish music on your Boehm flute. You will have the embrochure to which you are accustomed, no intonation issues, you can play in all 12 keys, and you can certainly do slides on a Boehm instrument.
Switching instruments is not going to suddenly make you sound Irish, except possibly to the untrained ear. Sounding Irish is all in the rhythm and style, not in the instrument. As someone else mentioned, Joanie Madden is an example of how to sound Irish on a Boehm flute. Paddy Carty is another player who played a classical-style flute (a Radcliffe) in Irish style. I’d suggest you try listening to some recordings of these players to see what they do before you drop a lot of money on a keyed wooden flute.
Ah, I wondered if anyone would pick up on this point. I entirely agree. When whomever said your playing did not have the right “timbre,” what they meant (I think) is that you did not have the Irish style of blowing (often described as a "reedy’ tone) and, of course, the Irish ornamentation and embellishments. If you are accomplished on Boehm, I suggest you do a lot of listening to Irish flute and simply imitate what you hear on Boehm. If you are not a dyed-in-the-wool Irish-style player, investing in a keyed wooden flute is not for you, and a keyless flute will only frustrate you. Such is my opinion, anyway.
On the other hand, after you have had more exposure to trad music, you might just find yourself becoming an addict. Then you’ll perhaps want a wooden flute, possibly even a keyed one. Be warned, young Skywalker!
People have mentioned Terry McGee previously. I notice that he currently has this flute in stock -
“Boehm-bore, Rounded Rectangle embouchure, Long D foot, 6-key” Flutes available now!
I would love to try one of these to experience any tonal differences to a conical simple system flute.
On the wooden headjoint side of things, Peter Noy makes great wooden headjoints for Boehm flutes. Doc has a nice boxwood one for sale in the Irish Flute Store, also there was recently a blackwood one for sale by Dana a few weeks ago. I (and others) can vouch for the quality and satisfaction giving factor of Noy’s work!
