Heh heh. He said “boo-tay”. Heh heh.
Like that? 
Go díreach.
I never figured that the “moccasin/mo chasan” thing was likely to be correct, but I thought it was a funny story, anyway. The same friend also clings to the theory that the Spanish word “gringo” originated from Mexicans hearing American settlers in the SW US singing the Robert Burns song “Green Grow The Rushes O”, which has also been long since discredited…
I liked the mention of the phrase “I’m just after having a cup of tea,” which is very Gaelic, and reminiscent of how Gaelic speakers make use of the pluperfect tense, e.g.
Tha mi dìreach air òl cupa tì. (“I’m just after drinking a cup of tea.”)
Bha i dìreach air tilleadh bho Glaschu. (“She was just back from Glasgow.”)
In Scottish communities that were largely Gaelic-speaking until a generation or two ago, you can still hear a lot of expressions in the local dialect of English derived from Gaelic. For instance, take the use of the greeting “good morning”, which is actually pretty rare outside of Germanic languages. In practically any Scottish Gaelic book, you’ll find it on page 3 (“madainn mhath”), however actual Gaelic speakers rarely say it, and older speakers view it as a distinctly “English” concept. You hear it all the time on the BBC, but not so much in real Gaelic speaking communities. Here, people might say “latha math” (“good day”), or, more likely, they’d make a comment about the weather (e.g., “'Se tuil a th’ann, nach e?”). Anyway, in some Highland English speaking communities, this still remains true: you rarely hear people say something like “good morning.” Rather, you’d still hear people make a comment about the weather or maybe say something like “It’s yourself” (from the Gaelic “Sin thu fhèin.”)
Likewise, you don’t often hear Irish speakers say “madainn mhaith” either. The traditional greeting in Irish is “Dia dhuit” (lit., “God to you.”). An Irish-speaking friend who worked in the Irish language programming office at BBC Northern Ireland said that she almost never heard anybody say “madainn mhaith” in her village in Kerry, but she would frequently hear people say it around the office in Belfast quite a lot. She figured this was because many of her co-workers were non-native fluent Irish speakers who wouldn’t perceive saying “good morning” in Irish to be at all weird.
I do wonder how Irish-speaking atheists would greet each other, though…
“Dia duit” is actually extremely formal, and rarely heard in the Gaeltacht. They’re more likely to use a form of “how are you?” (Which form depending on dialect. In Donegal, you’d say "cad é mar atá tú?) or some other comment. “Dia duit” is usually reserved for strangers on formal occasions.
By the way, “maidin mhaith” is quite common in the Donegal Gaeltacht. Your friend from Kerry may have been confused by the Ulster convention, since I presume most of the people she would have been working with in the BBC would have been Ulster Irish speakers. The very formal way of saying "good morning is “Dia duit ar maidin.”
Irish-speaking atheists say “Dia duit” the same way that English-speaking atheists say “goodbye” (which comes from “God be with you”) or Spanish-speaking atheists say “adios.” The greeting may literally mean “God to you,” but is essentially divorced from that meaning in terms of everyday use. I have atheist friends who quite happily say “Dia duit” and don’t bat an eye (though they appreciate the irony). It’s the same way with “slán” (goodbye), which technically means “safe/healthy” (it’s a shortened form of “slán abhaile”…“safe home”). People don’t say it thinking of it as a caution or a wish for good health, however…it’s just what you say when leaving someone.
Redwolf
No, I didn’t mean to suggest that you yourself needed the opposite end of the argument. Sorry if I was unclear. I provided that bit of info for the sake of your Scottish friend in case you meet again and the subject comes up, if making free to burst his bubbles is okay for you.
I’ve heard the “Green Grow” theory before, too. As it is said, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Again, I was aiming for a bit of humor at the end there…
Indeed, I noticed when I was recently in Belfast that most of the Irish I heard was Donegal dialect. Many of the people that I met there had been to Irish colleges in Donegal, and one young woman I met had been raised as a native Irish speaker in the Bóthar Seoighe/Shaw’s Road mini-Gaeltacht. Her Irish nonetheless sounded distinctly Donegal-esque as well because presumably her parents had learned their Irish from Donegal Irish speakers. My friend from Kerry mentioned that she’s had a couple of miscommunications with people due to some of the pronunciation differences between her speech and that of her friends/co-workers.
I seem to recall quite a few people greeting each other with “Dia dhuit/Dia is Muire dhuit” when I was spending the summer in Kerry a number of years ago. (For instance, when people went into shops and things.) I suppose I heard it more often among older people, though. Greeting someone with "Conas tá tú/Conas tá agat/Cen chaoí a bhfuil tú/Cad é mar atá tú/Ciamar a tha thu?"probably works fine if you know that person already, but I’d guess it would seem a bit odd to someone if uttered by a stranger. I still find it weird if a stranger says something like “Hey, how’s it goin’?” to me on the street.
Part of the reason I brought much of this up is that there’s a debate that’s recently been going on on another message board I peruse from time to time, the http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net Scottish Gaelic message board, about just how you go about greeting a stranger in Gaelic. The most common conclusion seem to be that you’d probably be strongly inclined to switch to English because if you’re a Gaelic speaker, chances are most of the people you tend to speak it with will be people that you know. Indeed, there’s quite a lot of evidence from minority speech communities the world over that people will feel a strong inclination to switch to the dominant language of the region when they encounter people that the don’t know, even if said people attempt to interact in the minority language. In this regard, some of the speech acts that occur among strangers at places like Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, Oídeas Gael, and elsewhere might strike some native speakers as inauthentic or a little odd because people are compelled to use Gaelic/Irish all the time, even when it wouldn’t seem natural for a native speaker to do so.
…Aaaaaaanyway/Co-dhiù, back to the topic at hand…
As for the confusion about brogan/brógán, don’t forget that the -an suffix (w/o fada or sràc) is the most common plural marker in Scottish Gaelic, often used much in the same way that -í is used in Irish. (e.g., “píobairí” in Irish vs. “pìobairean” in Gaelic). In Gaelic, “brògan” simply means “shoes”; there’s no implication of a diminutive form being used.
And another Irish word to add to the pile: snas, meaning gloss or polish (the adj. form being “snasta”), as the origin of the English “snazz”/“snazzy.”
Well, Donegal is in Ulster, after all. Not surprising that other speakers in Ulster would speak the same dialect. Derry, for example, is just across the Foyle from Donegal (used to be part of Donegal, actually, before partition) and it’s not all that far from Derry to Belfast. The Derry Irish speakers I know definitely have the same dialect as the folks in GCC.
Here’s one that is not, to the best of my knowledge (and research) related, but which always strikes me (no pun intended) as an interesting coincidence. The Irish word for “discipline” is “smacht,” which sounds very like the English “smack” (as in to “hit or strike”). As far as I can discover, however, “smack” has solidly Germanic roots, so unless they’re related back at the Proto-Indo-European level, it’s probably just a coincidence.
Redwolf
It is also said that the Hiberno-Irish word for an Irish accent comes from the Irish word ‘barrog’, hence ‘brogue’.
Hmmm… The only word close to that in my Irish dictionary is “barróg (n.): an embrace.” I don’t see how that could allude to one’s accent at all…
As much as I love the word “smacht” and try to regularly fit it into my rudimentary Irish conversations, I’m not sure if there’s a direction there either… Although there may be way, way back at the Proto-Indo-European level. Might be interesting to see what kinds of words crop up for terms such as discipline/hit/strike/etc. in other IE language families. Certainly wouldn’t rule it out…
MacBain’s might be an interesting resource for browsing. Scottish Gaelic … but, you know, if you go back far enough … Online, or as a downloadable text file:
Online: http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/index.html
Text: http://www2.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/macbain/
Also check out the Gaelic / Irish dictionaries available one level up at: http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/
A loan-word could have gone the other way, like fluit.
~~
I’ve often wondered if there’s a connection between cratur/craytur/craythur/creithur meaning booze, and the greek word ‘kratur’, which is literally the wide, flat bowl that wine was drunk from*, but is also by extension the wine itself and the act of drinking. This first time I heard the song The Humours of Whiskey (below) krater is what I thought I was hearing.
Irish monks and scholars have been classically learned since the dark ages, and in the period when English was being stuffed down their throats, Latin and Greek were attractive alternatives to english for irish scholars. You can’t call someone uneducated if he can speak latin, greek, and irish, even if he can’t (or refuses to) speak english to you.
Borrowing an ancient greek word for partying might initially have been a way to demonstrate erudition, and then was eventually assimilated as a part of the language. Being literate in Latin was also a way for irish scholars to get access to a pan-european culture and to the church, again without having to go through english.
Anyway, that’s been my theory. While googling a minute or so ago, I found this claim on wiktionary:
From Irish, craythur, the origins of the word date back to large Iron Age bowls from which alcohol was served. It is cognate to the ancient Greek Κρατερ. [Κρατερ=krater]
Which accepts the link that was intriguing me, but has an alternate explanation of the actual connection. It also doesn’t identify a source or any authority for the statement.
The Humours of Whiskey
Let your quacks and newspapers be cutting their capers
About curing the vapors the scratch and the gout
With their medical potions, their serums and their lotions
Upholding their notions, they’re mighty put out.Who can tell the true physic to all that’s pathetic
And pitch to the divil, cramp, colic and spleen
You’ll know it I think if you take a big drink
With your mouth to the brink of a jug of poteenSo stick to the > cratur’ > the best thing in nature
For sinking your sorrows and raising your joys
Oh what botheration, no dose in the nation
Can give consolation like poteen me boys.
*the greek understood fermenation, but hadn’t worked out how to get rid of the sediment. A wide bowl made it easy to seperate out the solids.
Groovy.
Hey Lads - Very interesting chat going on here.
I heard that the Gaelic word ‘bodhar’, meaning deaf, is possibly the root of the English word ‘boring’. Perhaps this fits into the ‘obvious’ category?
I have noticed parallels between Anglo Irish grammar and Scots Gaelic, for example - it is common, particularly in Lewis to say for example ‘Tha mi an deidh mo dhinnear ithe.’ or ‘Tha mi air a bhith a snàmh.’ In Ireland you would commonly hear ’ I am after eating my dinner’ or ‘I am after swimming’.
I am missing the Irish language knowledge, however, I am sure the same grammatical structures are there
Sort of along those lines, I just came across a word-for-word parallel between the putative Irish idiom “cuir suas le…” and the English idiom “put up with…” (which means of course “endure”), and was given to understand that the Irish phrase has the same meaning. Interesting, I thought. Can anyone confirm this? I’m not best assured of my source.
Irish has the same structure. “Tá mé i ndhiaidh mo dhinnéar a ithe”…I’m after eating my dinner." That structure in Hiberno English comes directly from the mother tongue.
Another one that makes its way into Hiberno English is the concept of physical features, emotions, and illnesses being “on” you, rather than something you possess.
Redwolf
It does have that meaning in Irish, but I suspect it may be Béarlachas (a structure that was borrowed directly from English into Irish)…much as “tá fáilte romhat” (which originally would have been used only to welcome somebody to a place…not as a response to “thank you”).
One that’s interesting is the phrase that’s used when irritated with someone, or with something someone’s said or done. In English, we might say “I don’t want to put you OUT,” but Irish uses the phrase “put in” instead! (for example, “Ní maith liom tusa a chuir isteach, ach…” I don’t want to put you out (but literally “in”), but…").
Redwolf
Thanks.
Didn’t know that “tá fáilte romhat” was being used as a response to a thank-you! That strikes me as weird-sounding, but it just goes to show how disconnected from the living language I am. Is that now the common practice, then?
Yes, in many areas. I’ve heard “tá fáilte romhat” more frequently than the more traditional “go ndéana sé maith duit,” even in the Gaeltacht (and it’s what’s taught in most learning methods these days). It’s evidently become standard, even if it’s not traditional.
Redwolf
“go ndéana sé maith duit,”
Would this translate roughly as “may it serve you well”?