http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330275634467&_trksid=p2759.l1259
Looks just like mine, except a little nicer…
I hope yours was cheaper.
Yes, mine was a lot cheaper, but it was a mess when I got it.
have i seen yours? i seem to recall you buying it, but i dont remember if you showed me a picture or not.
Shouldn’t it have a serial number?
I have seen a couple without serial numbers. Mine plays fine without the serial number… 
Someone has just bid on the Rudall Rose Carte on ebay…I thought the seller had set the price too high, but it’s a Rudall and there you go.
again…there are “several” without serial numbers.
My theory has been they are “seconds” or flutes that are not as high-quality to the standard Rudall&Rose set. So, ergo, were shoveled out the door without concern to logging them into the records.
Sort of like “second” golf balls. (or X-outs as they are called).
They still say “Titleist” on them…but for some reason – a dimple misplaced, a slight imperfection – they are dubbed “seconds” because they are not perfect as you’d expect.
I’d always prefer a Rudall with a serial number on it…and would not pay top dollar for one without it. Chances are you’d not get back what you paid for it (assuming you paid market price).
Sorry David but that’s not true and you’d be going too far there. You’re downgrading a flute before tyring it and regardless of the maker’s craft simply because it doesn’t have a serial number… Many excellent flutes don’t have serial numbers, according to a number of well-known makers today. As someone else on the message board said, “mine plays fine without the serial number”. The serial number is perhaps more a matter for the collector.
By the way, I don’t mean at all to sound disrespectful in my last message. I appreciate your points. Best.
Hi Jon
Wouldn’t this Rudall Carte be a more sensible buy.
This Goulding and Co looks quite nice too.
DAvid
Mr. Migoya is guessing. Its a good guess and its sounds reasonable but…
He has no hard evidence that what he suggested is true. Its subjective at best.
However he certainly is a person that has owned and had his hands on MANY R&R.
He is certainly fully qualified to judge playability… you only need to hear him play to know that.
So David, have you sat serial no’d vs. non serial no’d side by side in any large quantity and played them for the purpose of seeing your theory tested?
If not it would be an interesting diversion at the very least.
Good point Aanvil, I very much admire Mr. Migoya’s flute playing.
By the way, did you see that that Ruddal, Rose, Carte cocuswood flute with nickel-silver keys just sold for 3400 british Pounds (4300 Euros approx) on Ebay? Three cheers for nickel silver! Just joking. But isn’t that quite rare to see a flute like that go for such a price?
Strewth! And there I was suggesting the last R&R (#4921) on eBay went under-priced (though admittedly needing a bit more work than this one does)! This one definitely went way over! The last closely similar flute to sell on eBay (RRC&Co. #6395 on Sept 9th 08), a much better example - serial numbered, in better condition, with silver keys and ready to play - only achieved £2,560/3,180 Euros - and that was a pretty fair result/price, I felt. Looking at the bidding history there were clearly two people who really wanted this one!
David, I presume this latest RR&C would be earlier than last month’s RRC&Co one? Do you have dates for them at 100 New Bond St.?
I suspect that’s why I label the “non-serial number” thought as a “theory,” which I did indeed disclaim as such.
the firm was extremely careful…for decades…to log and keep track by way of serial number of every single flute it sold.
It took such pains to do this that it created separate serial number sequences for the variety of instruments it produced, as well as the variety of flutes it made (Boehm, Radcliffe, even Siccama, and piccolos).
Given this amount of care and attention to detail…it’s always struck me funny at the suggestion that the firm was “careless” and that instruments without serial numbers were merely “mistakes” that slipped through unmarked, perhaps the carelessness of a clerk or salesman.
Yes, mistakes were made, but of all those that I’ve catalogued or have seen, there is reasonable explanation for those mishaps, each on an individual basis.
I cannot, bearing in mind what I just described as the firm’s attention to details, think of any reasonable explanation for the flutes sans-serial number except that they were discounted seconds on the wall for those unable to afford the better, higher-quality pieces.
Granted, the 8key flute was all but obsolete by the 1870s – save for the bands and other diverse playing – the serial numbers that should have been on the flute – the LATER flutes – have little reason not to be there…unless…
I should note that RR flutes in the early years (and only 1 has thus far been located and catalogued) did not have serial numbers. The earliest recorded is a 410-series flute (i think 414 is the number, but I’m not at the computer with that info). There is none before that…or any with the first address of 11 Tavistock as has been reported to be the founding location. The earliest (with no serial number) has the earliest address actually on a flute: 7 Tavistock. And the flute is made of ebony, not cocus, as flutes of that day were produced (either boxwood or ebony…cocus still being the “new” and more upscale choice).
I’m not suggesting they don’t play well (those without serial number). I own 2 of them myself, Paddy Ward models one of his flutes after one w/o serial number that I got to play a bit myself, and there are others out there. Many “play” fine.
But collectibility also adds value to the Rudall flutes and that collectibility comes from its quality and that is best assured by the serial number.
note to Jem
Yes, the catalogue helps me narrow that 100 bond street flute to within about 30 in the serial number sequence, based on its construction, etc.
Just like the Ivory Rudall that has no serial number, it’s construction and marks allows me to narrow to within 50 of when it was likely made/sold.
The catalogue (which will be online again this Fall/Winter) has been very useful in that respect.
We’ve uncovered new information about Mr. Rudall and, like many, I’m anxiously awaiting the publication of Mr. Biggio’s book this fall on the history of the firm. I know he’s done an immense amount of work on it and we’ve crossed paths (in a good way) many, many times during our research!
Well obviously they are worth more, this one closed at $6k!
there’s no accounting for what some people will pay for a name alone.
buy low
sell high.
just like the mortgages on wall street
As for the “non-serial number theory”, one wonders why they would stamp the Rudall & Rose name on flutes of a lower quality.
To go further, could it be that there are anonymous flutes out there that are really R&R seconds or prototypes?