Low C Foot-Joint for the Uilleann Chanter

Uilleann Pipes
21

Thanks for the thoughts Mr. Gumby. However, that comment was not a general one aimed at you or anyone other than Elmek, who, I believed, had not read and fully understood the article before he passed judgement.

I believe that low C (being a low leading note in the scale) is an important note in Irish traditional music. A casual glance at the song repertoire will show this. Others may, however, disagree. I have, will continue to (and I hope others will) post examples from the tradition that support my belief.

By all accounts, the foot-joint was dropped from the pastoral chanter not because pipers didn’t want low C anymore, but because they wanted to be able to stop the chanter. Losing C was a trade-off.

I didn’t expect every piper to be interested in this, for various reasons, some demonstrated clearly in this thread so far. I did expect some to be interested in it. About that, so far, I was right :wink:.

22

By all accounts, the foot-joint was dropped from the pastoral chanter not because pipers didn’t want low C anymore, but because they wanted to be able to stop the chanter. Losing C was a trade-off.

Well, that’s open to discussion (which accounts would that be then?) but it’s not very likely pipers would have dropped a ‘very important note’.

But that concerned the tongue in cheek part of my posts. I really like to hear more about the regulator reach in relation to added chanter length, tonal effect and tuning of the bottom C (can it be adjusted for tuning for example or is it pre-set)

23

Then discuss it. What’s your alternative proposition?

See Anderson, McCandless and Cheape.

We disagree. No problem. I think it did and does happen. F natural is a very important note in Irish traditional music. Many pipers opt not to use it very much or at all and I have absolutely no grievance with that (grievances are not the point of this project). I’m not in any way trying to “improve” the chanter or suggest it is deficient in any way whatsoever. This is simply an option.

I don’t know you and I can’t see when your tongue is in your cheek, so expect that I will address any of your statements as if they were thoughtful and sincere.

None of the pipers that have tested the foot-joint so far have said anything about the reach to the regulators, but Mr. Bayley may have a point. One probably couldn’t use all regulator keys in the same way as they are used to doing. There may be some adjustments needed. I don’t see this as a big deal. The history of the uilleann pipes is a history of adjustments.

There is no tonal effect of the foot-joint on other notes. The foot-joint is tuned for a chanter that is fairly close (within 20 cents) to D. Fine-tuning is accomplished by the degree of lift off of the knee.

24

I don’t know you and I can’t see when your tongue is in your cheek

I did leave a hint …

We can ofcourse assume pipers decided when they dropped the foot joint in the first place

25

By the way, thanks Chris Bayley, for weighing in. Could you share exactly how the bottom D was sounded with your foot-joint on an uilleann chanter? Was it sounded through a new tone-hole(s) in the foot-joint body or was the bottom end of the chanter open to the greater atmosphere? And when the foot-joint was closed was there anything up against the bottom opening of the chanter, or was the open end of the chanter exposed to the inside of the closed piston? I think these points will provide immense clarification.

Tongues lolling out of their mouths? Looks like “loony bins” to me. Nevertheless, this is a statement, and one which I think is incorrect. We cannot assume that pipers won’t be interested in this foot-joint because pipers in the past dropped the pastoral foot-joint (and I am not assuming that many pipers will be interested). The two foot-joints are not the same and accomplish different aims.

26

No need to get overly defensive, Duncan. That’s understandable, I suppose, with a new product. But to make best use of feedback from experienced pipers like Mr. Gumby, you’ll need to focus less on the messenger and more on the message, if I can offer that as a suggestion.

The questions about the effects on intonation and playability are legitimate. Again, a competent video demo might be very helpful. And the questions about tune repertoire are from players who are very familiar with the ITM canon.

27

Thanks for your concern MTGuru, but I’m not feeling defensive at all - I feel great. I’m very much focused on Gumby’s message and am answering his points as precisely and directly as I can.

Thanks for your suggestion. I don’t know Mr. Gumby, and as far as I can see, I haven’t made any comment on his person. Perhaps you point out where you think I’ve focused on the messenger. So far he hasn’t offered me any feedback that I consider particularly valuable. I take it there’s no problem with that? Maybe you can let me know which part of his message I haven’t focused on as well as what feedback of Gumby’s you think I should use.

The questions about tuning and effects on playability are completely legitimate, which is why I treated them as such and attempted to address them. I haven’t suggested that they weren’t legitimate.

Again, a video would indeed be very helpful and I will try to organize that at the earliest.

I haven’t questioned anyone’s familiarity with the ITM canon. I disagree with those who say that a low leading note is not important in Irish traditional music, and have attempted to back up my claim. So we disagree. Any problem there?

28

That’s good. It’s just that your picking apart replies like this may come across as defensive. You’re new to the board and the board’s community. So relax and enjoy … :slight_smile:

Nope. But that’s the kind of reply that comes across on-line like you have a chip on your shoulder, and there’s no need. Really.

And as the Moderator, I’m trying to keep this thread on an even keel.

Well, maybe not directly. But your own choice of Low C Tunes to back up your assertion is definitely off-beat. So if your background is primarily Cape Breton, the question may be more about your familiarity with the ITM canon, and additional info about your own uilleann piping experience may be helpful there. Your previous incarnation with the Highland Hornpipe doesn’t necessarily give much to go on, and your site bio talks about GHB but not uilleann piping.

Personally, as a whistler, I’ve never found the lack of a low C to be an issue. FWIW, I do have one whistle (SZBE) with a low C foot which I soon discarded in favor of the standard D foot, finding the C unnecessary. As a concertina/box/banjo/guitar player, having access to the C is nice enough. But often it feels like simply a fungible neighbor tone. And for fiddly tunes that drop below D for entire phrases, having only the C isn’t much advantage.

But sometimes invention is the mother of necessity. And if your device catches on, its users might reassess how having access to that note affects their thinking about the repertoire. Chicken and egg …

29

damm this is like, way better n anything on tv right now :laughing:

30

Once again, MTGuru thanks, but I’m quite relaxed and was already enjoying a good debate. I do think we’re getting a bit sidetracked here though, focusing on perceived bad feelings of mine that I’m not actually experiencing. I find quoting to be the easiest way to clear up misunderstandings. That’s my style, and I believe what quotes are for. If there is a policy on quoting that I’m contravening, please let me know. Its nothing personal for me please so don’t be upset by it - and get ready for some quotes :smiley:! As far as being new, I’ve been reading C&F for at least a decade, if that counts for anything.

There’s no chip. Really. You seemed to have an issue and I wanted to clear it up.

Not directly or indirectly, but I think you begin to question mine below, unless I misunderstand.

The airs for She Moved Through the Fair, My Lagan Love, The Foggy Dew, The Green Fields of Canada, The March of Kings of Laois and O’Neill’s March are “definitely offbeat”? I guess we disagree here too. If anything, I thought I might get lambasted for posting tunes that were too well-known or overplayed.

I’m confused. I thought you were chiding me for questioning others familiarity with the ITM canon, which I have not once done, but now you seem to be doing that very thing. Doesn’t particularly bother me, just a bit confusing.

I’m a little surprised I’m being prompted to do this but here goes: I am not an expert or an authority on ITM, nor do I ever expect to be. I’ve been listening to Irish traditional music since I was in the womb and playing it for 30 years (whistle, flute, bodhran and a modest amount of uilleann pipes). I have travelled in Ireland for months on end and attended and participated in festivals, fleadhs and Willie Clancy week. Yes my background is Cape Breton and my first instrument is the GHB, but I have listened to and played ITM more than Cape Breton music by an exponential factor. Again, I am not an expert or an authority, nor do I ever expect to be - but I do have informed opinions and will discuss them with anyone who’d like to.

Good. Nor have I. I have on occasion thought it would be fun to have for some tunes. But its not an “issue” or a “problem”.

What is or isn’t necessary depends on what you are setting out to do, IMO. “What’s necessary” is therefore situation specific, i.e. its a personal thing. You have already stated that you never found the lack of low C to be an “issue”, therefore it would make sense that you would find a whistle C foot-joint unnecessary. I would never say low C is “necessary” for playing ITM.

Not sure I follow. Passing notes, or what you call “neighbour tones” are fungible? Firstly, not all low C’s are passing notes, secondly I consider passing notes to be quite important regardless that they are not structural to the melody. Remove all of them and you might see where I’m coming from. Sure, any one of them can missed without deleterious effects, but having access to any one in the right circumstances only broadens your possibilities. More colour to your palette.

Again, that’s a statement one can make only for oneself and one’s musical preferences, a value-judgement.

Smilies to all.

P.S. I’d love to get back on track and chat about the foot-joint with those who are interested in it, but will continue to chat with those who clearly aren’t if need be.

31

Yes, and I missed the Rose Parade for this. :stuck_out_tongue:

32

I happened to peek at this clever hardware being test driven at the recent NE tionol. Intriguing.

t

33

The Moderators will restrict you (or anyone) from over-quoting or being overly argumentative if we decide it’s a problem. It’s our judgment call.

Thanks for the information on your background. That’s helpful.

You should check the difference between passing tones and neighbor tones. They’re not the same. By definition, the C cannot be a passing tone on the (extended) pipes, because there’s no B (or lower) to pass to or from. And to restate the obvious, an instrument with a lowest note of C cannot handle, as-is, phrases consisting of notes below C.

I’ll let my other points stand, because I think they’re clear enough to begin with. :wink:

As Tommy’s post suggests, some hands-on evaluation in the hands of pipers seems like a good next step.

34

As Tommy’s post suggests, some hands-on evaluation in the hands of pipers seems like a good next step.

That would probably be a more likely way to get answers to the questions asked.

As Tommy said, intriguing, but It baffles me why Duncan won’t address any of the questions in more depth than he does.

That’s me done so.

35

Quite true. Often it isn’t the inventor of a prototype that gets credit for the final product but a person who finds a way to make it work smoothly and reliably and widely available to users at a reasonable price. (And Gillis, I’m not saying that you didn’t invent this gizmo.) There are lots of examples but the automobile and airplane come immediately to mind.

36

Well at least we now know Headley’s hidden agenda ,when he was posting his seemly pointless inquiry back in june- september.

RORY

37

It started like this…

and turned thus…

Ball park price then???

38

OK, let’s try this. MTGuru, thanks for explaining the difference between passing tones and neighbour tones. My main point still stands - these notes, when they are played, are played for a reason, therefore they are important in that playing. Whether to include them or not depends on personal preference, as well as whether you have and are used to having the option of playing those particular notes.

Some pipers have already done their own hands on evaluation. That step has already begun and will be an ongoing process I’m sure.

I’m pretty sure I’ve addressed any questions that have come up. If I’ve missed any or you want more detail, don’t be baffled, ask away. That’s why I started this thread.

Uilliam, I just don’t know right now. I’m not holding out - I just don’t know. And the way this thread has gone you might understand my hesitation to even speculate - it would likely become one more point of derision.

39

A fair point Ceann. Just to be clear, I’ve never seen, or til now heard of, Mr.Bayley’s device and based on the descriptions so far, I’m not sure that it is very similar to this one. I would need more detail to know for sure.

40

Chris you need to post something more detailed or market your chanter extension before Mr Gillis or is it Mr Headley of ferrule size fame (thanks for that RoryBellows as we had all missed that point :astonished:) slaps a patent on it to stop you using yours as they seem in principle to do the same job i.e. give you a D and a leading note C below

MTGuru wrote
No need to get nasty, Elmek. You’ve made your point, such as it is. The OP asked if it had been done before, and you’ve answered the question.

Well it was the way he quieried what I wrote. Did not intend to offend so sorry for that and have smacked myself on the wrist for it :smiley:

I would note that if Mr Gillis is indeed also Mr Headley then the same antagonism was present when people quieried why he needed the size of peoples bottom ferrules (Chanter that is :heart: ) both here and the UP Discussion Forum.

John