Language death

[Jack]

The following wikipedia article is about the Eyak language, and links to a brief page about its only living speaker, an elderly lady named Marie Smith Jones. After she dies, the language will be gone forevermore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyak_language

Can you imagine how isolating and lonely it must be when you know that nobody else in the world speaks your language and that with your upcoming death the entire language will vanish? That must be an absolutely awful thing to live with.

Reasons like her (and Ed Maddrell and Dolly Pentreath, et al) are why I’m trying my best to learn Cherokee. I hate to see languages die. There’s no hope for Eyak, but Cherokee still has 22,000 native speakers so there’s plenty hope to keep it alive and growing, but it requires people to committ to learning it, or at the very least learning about it and sharing with others.

It makes me sad when people say that Latin is a dead language. Latin is still spoken in the Vatican and is still a base for French, Romanian, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Catalan, and all that stuff. You can still learn Latin. That can’t be said for Eyak or languages like it.

[Walden]

I agree that loss of language is a terrible thing. It comes, perhaps, from living in an age of a monolithic society. With mass-communications, it’s much easier if there are just a few major languages, Japanese, English, Chinese, German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.

Cherokee, which, by the highest estimate, doesn’t even have enough speakers to make a big city, isn’t considered one of the world’s more endangered languages. There are so many languages, spoken for centuries by ancient nations, all around the world, from Africa to the lands of the southern ocean, from Europe to South America, that are dying off, like endangered species, and with every loss of language is a loss of culture and a loss of a way of seeing and understanding the world.

I don’t think Cherokee will be lost to scholars, barring some cataclysm that disrupts academia as we know it, because it is a documented language, with almost two centuries of written literature. It would continue in use, among certain specialized individuals, somewhat like Latin or Old Church Slavonic or other languages which survive only in specialty use.

There are American Indian languages where this has happened. The Wyandottes completely lost their language, but scholars remained who knew it, and revival efforts seem to be underway among the remaining Wyandottes (I have Wyandotte best friends). http://www.wyandotte-nation.org/language.html

I think Cran is right. With Cherokee, it’s not too late. The Cherokee Nation has been working with the Hawaiian people to learn their methods of language revitalization. We have free classes being offered in the communities to teach the Cherokee language. Native speakers are teaching the language in colleges, public schools, and even through interactive online live video. The local Cherokee Headstart program is using immersion classes, so that the young children are able to learn Cherokee in their developmental stage. One public school has expanded the immersion classes through the first grade. This is having the effect of not only bringing a new generation of speakers, but they in turn influence their parents to learn.

It’s uphill, though. It’s only been recently that Cherokee has even been added to the Unicode standard, and there aren’t a lot of resources. Most books in the language are out of print, and only to be found in library special collections. There are no television channels in Cherokee, or even radio stations, though there is a radio program or two in the language, which is of immense value. There are also a few animated short films in Cherokee.

[Innocent_Bystander]

It’s sad, but languages do die. Just as people die. If you managed somehow to keep everyone alive, there would be no room for new babies. If you managed to keep all the laguages alive, the current ones would not evolve. The only language that we know of that was ever considered a “dead” language revived, is modern Hebrew. One question is “was it ever dead?” It was used in liturgy throughout the world, for millenia. Modern Hebrew might be considered to be a language propagated from a shoot.
You are preaching to the choir, on this topic, in this forum. Gaelic has had to fight for its existence, and still does. But you have to ask what a language is for. In fact, what is culture for?

I’m in a special position here, but I’m certainly not alone in this. I was taught English from my infancy. My parents have no Gaelic. My School did not teach it. Despite this, when I started to learn Gaelic I realised that the way I expressed myself in English derived from Gaelic grammar and styles of speech. There is a particular Mood of verb, the emphatic, which is common in Gaelic but nonexistent in English. When Irish people speak English, they use other ways to express the emphatic mood, so they do. I do it myself, so I do. There are idiomatic expressions which are direct translations from the Gaelic – like my Mother telling me I was “very through-other” – meaning extremely untidily dressed. There are points of speech where I will fail to pronounce the letter “T”. I thought it was a speech impediment until I found that this is what happens in Gaelic.

What I’m trying to say is, the language is a reflection of how the people think, how their minds are organised. While the people live, the basis, the NEED for the language will be there. If the people are gone, if the mindset is gone, the language is truly dead. It is comparatively easy to observe a language dying. “This is the last native speaker.” People do not, so far, observe languages coming into being. They must come into being, for they must have come from somewhere, and they are here. English itself is (or was) a Creole – a combination of two languages, evolved for practical communication. When people learn a “Creole” as their mother tongue, it technically ceases to be a Creole, and becomes a separate language. This is a difficult thing to spot. How many dialects are really languages? How many should be preserved? The same thing happens with our observations of other species. We may spot them disappearing (sometimes erroneously) but it’s harder to spot new species evolving. And they do.

To put it another way, if people need a different language, a different way of expressing themselves, it will arise. Of course there are old stories and old poems which it is romantic to wish to preserve. I can’t help thinking that maybe more effort should be directed into creating new ones, new stories, new poems. Good ones. For there is an awful lot of literary dross out there.

So, yes, it’s sad for a language to die. But the culture is not in the piles of books or the songs that are lost; it is in us, in the words yet unspoken, and the songs not yet sung.

[emmline]

@Innocent Bystander

So, yes, it’s sad for a language to die. But the culture is not in the piles of books or the songs that are lost; it is in us, in the words yet unspoken, and the songs not yet sung.

Yes, IB, and eloquently expressed. My thoughts were similar. It’s not so much sad, as it is sort of bittersweet to get a perspective on how people and traditions evolve over time.

[Tyler]

@emmline

@Innocent Bystander

So, yes, it’s sad for a language to die. But the culture is not in the piles of books or the songs that are lost; it is in us, in the words yet unspoken, and the songs not yet sung.

Yes, IB, and eloquently expressed. My thoughts were similar. It’s not so much sad, as it is sort of bittersweet to get a perspective on how people and traditions evolve over time.

Great post IB, Walden, Cran…
This is why a friend of mine (also of Welsh decent) and I have endeavoured to learn Cymraeg (Welsh)…in order to preserve our heritage and the culture of those that came before us.

[Redwolf]

Good post, IB. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been learning Irish too (and find myself now that I do be talking like Yoda! )

Redwolf

[DCrom]

Isn’t modern Hebrew something of a back-from-the-scholars language? As I understand it, there was a long period that although still learned by observent Jews, its use was largely confined to religious scholarship.

Or for a more extreme case, how about Cornish? Though there’s argument about when the last “traditional” Cornish speaker died (definitions differ) - the latest date I’ve seen was 1875. But it was deliberately revived early in the 20th century by scholars. Checking online, it looks like it has something under 4000 people who can understand it to some extent, 3-400 “fully fluent” speakers - and perhaps 50 “native speakers” who leaned it as their first language. Even considering how well-documented Cornish was, with an established literature (and a close relationship with both Welsh and Breton), that’s a remarkable achievement.

[Walden]

@DCrom

Isn’t modern Hebrew something of a back-from-the-scholars language? As I understand it, there was a long period that although still learned by observent Jews, its use was largely confined to religious scholarship.

I think that more than just scholars learned it, as it is an important part of Jewish liturgy, not just the liturgy of worship services, but of prayers and religious observances in the home.

[peteinmn]

Fascinating stuff. Just by coincidence, I am just finishing a book titled The Story of English. This was actually written as a companion piece to a PBS television series from the 1980’s. It is a very well done and traces the history of the English language from its roots through its evolution and modern varieties. It does give you a perspective that many of its antecedent forms are also now “lost.” Interestingly, there is a good deal in the book about the evolution of Irish English. Good stuff. I may buy the VHS tapes as well.

The book and tapes are available at Amazon here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/002-9897072-1546427?search-alias=aps&keywords=the%20story%20of%20english

[DCrom]

@Walden

@DCrom

Isn’t modern Hebrew something of a back-from-the-scholars language? As I understand it, there was a long period that although still learned by observent Jews, its use was largely confined to religious scholarship.

I think that more than just scholars learned it, as it is an important part of Jewish liturgy, not just the liturgy of worship services, but of prayers and religious observances in the home.

Oh, yes - didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Just that its use was largely confined to the religious context, not as much day-to-day living. But everything I know about the subject is 2nd or 3rd hand - anyone who’s more knowlegeable please correct as needed.

[Walden]

I think languages are “lost” in more than one way. Some, such as Middle English, aren’t so much truly lost but evolve naturally (though still somewhat comprehensible to Modern English speakers). Others are suppressed, such as when a nation is conquered by another nation. Suppressed languages may die out, or diminish, though if the population of the original peoples is large enough its influence may be felt in the adopted language of the conquerors. In cases of small language groups the speakers may all die, and the language is truly “dead and gone.” In other such cases, the smaller group may be very much assimilated into the larger group, and its former language’s influence minimized to near nonexistence. These latter forms of language loss characterize much of the indigenous languages of North and South America.

[Tyler]

@Walden

I think languages are “lost” in more than one way. Some, such as Middle English, aren’t so much truly lost but evolve naturally (though still somewhat comprehensible to Modern English speakers). Others are suppressed, such as when a nation is conquered by another nation. Suppressed languages may die out, or diminish, though if the population of the original peoples is large enough its influence may be felt in the adopted language of the conquerors. In cases of small language groups the speakers may all die, and the language is truly “dead and gone.” In other such cases, the smaller group may be very much assimilated into the larger group, and its former language’s influence minimized to near nonexistence. These latter forms of language loss characterize much of the indigenous languages of North and South America.

Actually, in the norther part of South America one will find quite a deal more indigenous languages still spoken and handed down in some of the more isolated areas. My father learned Quetchua while living some years in Ecuador (minasnastacangi everybody!!! I have no idea if I spelled that right or not!!! my knowlege of Quetchua is purely verbal), where that language is still spoken as a first (and sometimes only) language away most of the modernized metro areas. It’s also spoken in Bolivia, Peru, and the northern areas of Chile and Argentina.
Guarani is the second official language of Paraguay (don’t know any, sorry) and is still spoken like French is in Canada.


Here’s a site offering some basics on other Andean and South American indigenous languages still spoken.
There’s even some background on Nahuatl, the now dead language of the Aztecs, which in many respects lives on in Mexican and Central American Spanish and even in some American English words, for example, coyote, avacado, ocelot, and chocolate all have their roots in Nahuatl.

[Jack]

@Tyler Morris

Guarani is the second official language of Paraguay (don’t know any, sorry) and is still spoken like French is in Canada.

So that’s to say in most of the country it’s not spoken at all except by one or two slightly geographically isolated but heavily concentrated minority groups?

I have two friends in Alberta. If you spoke to them in French, they’d smack your face. They’ve given me much education on the issue of the French language in other parts of Canada besides Quebec.

Of course, they’re Western Nationalists ( http://www.westcan.org/ ), so that probably colors their views a little bit.

[Tyler]

@Cranberry

@Tyler Morris

Guarani is the second official language of Paraguay (don’t know any, sorry) and is still spoken like French is in Canada.

So that’s to say in most of the country it’s not spoken at all except by one or two slightly geographically isolated but heavily concentrated minority groups?

I have two friends in Alberta. If you spoke to them in French, they’d smack your face. They’ve given me much education on the issue of the French language in other parts of Canada besides Quebec.

Of course, they’re Western Nationalists ( http://www.westcan.org/ ), so that probably colors their views a little bit.

I found French to be handy while living in Canada, but that’s just one man’s experience.

[Jack]

@Tyler Morris

@Cranberry

@Tyler Morris

Guarani is the second official language of Paraguay (don’t know any, sorry) and is still spoken like French is in Canada.

So that’s to say in most of the country it’s not spoken at all except by one or two slightly geographically isolated but heavily concentrated minority groups?

I have two friends in Alberta. If you spoke to them in French, they’d smack your face. They’ve given me much education on the issue of the French language in other parts of Canada besides Quebec.

Of course, they’re Western Nationalists ( http://www.westcan.org/ ), so that probably colors their views a little bit.

I found French to be handy while living in Canada, but that’s just one man’s experience.

My experience in Canada (southern Ontario) is that French is useless in most parts of the country with the exception of the entire province of Quebec and other isolated areas as one travels eastward. Of course you’re guaranteed the right to have governmental communications in French if you choose, but most Canadian citizens don’t really speak any French at all from what I’ve seen.

In the prarie provinces in particular, German (for the Hutterite communities) or various Native American languages are much more common and useful than French (or so I’ve been told, I’ve never been to the prairie provinces but I have no reason to believe people would lie to me about the situation).

[The_Weekenders]

At my belated birthday party on Sunday, Limuhead sung a song in the language of Easter Island (Raapanui). That was about as obscure a tongue as I have heard. To be accurate though, it;s part of the Polynesian language group so there are other similar living languages..

[Tyler]

@Cranberry

@Tyler Morris

@Cranberry

So that’s to say in most of the country it’s not spoken at all except by one or two slightly geographically isolated but heavily concentrated minority groups?

I have two friends in Alberta. If you spoke to them in French, they’d smack your face. They’ve given me much education on the issue of the French language in other parts of Canada besides Quebec.

Of course, they’re Western Nationalists ( http://www.westcan.org/ ), so that probably colors their views a little bit.

I found French to be handy while living in Canada, but that’s just one man’s experience.

My experience in Canada (southern Ontario) is that French is useless in most parts of the country with the exception of the entire province of Quebec and other isolated areas as one travels eastward. Of course you’re guaranteed the right to have governmental communications in French if you choose, but most Canadian citizens don’t really speak any French at all from what I’ve seen.

In the prarie provinces in particular, German (for the Hutterite communities) or various Native American languages are much more common and useful than French (or so I’ve been told, I’ve never been to the prairie provinces but I have no reason to believe people would lie to me about the situation).

Oh Lordy! I was just making a comparison for hells sake!

[Jack]

@Tyler Morris

@Cranberry

@Tyler Morris

I found French to be handy while living in Canada, but that’s just one man’s experience.

My experience in Canada (southern Ontario) is that French is useless in most parts of the country with the exception of the entire province of Quebec and other isolated areas as one travels eastward. Of course you’re guaranteed the right to have governmental communications in French if you choose, but most Canadian citizens don’t really speak any French at all from what I’ve seen.

In the prarie provinces in particular, German (for the Hutterite communities) or various Native American languages are much more common and useful than French (or so I’ve been told, I’ve never been to the prairie provinces but I have no reason to believe people would lie to me about the situation).

Oh Lordy! I was just making a comparison for hells sake!

My name isn’t Lordy.