I’ve perused the threads.
Some use all piper, some use all fingertips, some use fingertips upper hand and piper lower hand. Some use a combination of both in a single hand.
Is there a solid agreement on a “classical” grip for keyless Irish flute?
If not I’ve got no beef. I’ll pursue what it most comfortable to me. But if there is some “standard” grip for keyless I’d like to give it a study. Is there?
Not really, each to their own, but it’s worth reading…
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_holding_the_flute.html
Single best thing, if you are at the beginning, is to take a lesson from a teacher. Can save you years of
trouble.
The only problem with Jim’s reply is that it doesn’t address the issue; and furthermore, every teacher will not have the same grip, nor even necessarily understand the implications of their own, to say nothing of others. Just as there are grips unsuitable to the individual, there are people called “teachers” who are inadequate to the task. Beyond that, I have no disagreement at all with Jim’s suggestion.
I’d use a grip that can be used on both keyed and keyless so you don’t stitch yourself up if you go on to a keyed flute. I vaguely remember a mate (a good player) who played pipers grip on his keyless flute had a few problems playing my keyed flute - he said that the keys and mounts were getting in the way.
That alone should provide the answer you are looking for.
Of course not. Otherwise you would not have observed what you describe above.
That’s the ticket! We all have different hands, different flutes, different musical and musculoskeletal backgrounds. Use what works best for you. This is a path of discovery. It is called “playing”. So don’t take things too seriously. And avoid the prescriptive alleyways. It will all come to you the more you play.
Take a look at Cathal Mconnell, Mike McGoldrick or Larry Nugent playing. What’s that tell you? How does Seamus Egan manage to switch top hands between playing flute and whistles? They all use what works for them. There are some wild and wonderful players out there that use unconventional means to play as they do.
Feadoggie
as feadoggie said, there seems to be no solid agreement on this underhanded matter. so you will have to try out the different ways of holding the flute and see what works and what doesn’t work for you, read other people’s opinion about what works for them, and keep in mind there are advantages/disadvantages to each. explore the possibilities (kinestically speaking). the only warning i would have comes from my experience. be aware that using the finger ‘tip’ (as opposed to the finger ‘pad’) particularly on the 5th tonehole (the biggest one) on larger holed flutes might pose a problem in covering it, if your finger is not fat enough. i eventually switched to a flatter finger (more extension of DIP) so that my finger pad rests comfortably over that hole. now even the largest holed flutes pose no problem.
(by ‘tip’ i mean the very tippy top ‘point’ of the finger, the part to use to poke someone in the eye, and by ‘pad’ i mean the part of your finger the policewoman tells you to roll on the inkpad to get your fingerprint, at least thats what happens to loren on friday nights before he calls me for bail money and then i have to poke him in the eye.)
OK. go to a good teacher of Irish flute, one who is adequate to the task.
There is indeed a more or less classical grip–it isn’t always used nor should it necessarily be–
and the good teacher will know it even if she doesn’t use it. I mean a professional who performs.
The more or less classical grip is a good place to start, even if one moves from it. I say this from
experience, cause I did go to a good teacher (Grey Larsen) initially, disregarded his instructions
immediately, and it took me years and some injury to learn how to hold the flute (the way I was originally
taught).
Another option is to go to a workshop in flute at a Festival, for instance the Tional upcoming in St. Louis.
Another option is to PM me and tell me where you are. I may be able to recommend someone good.
Of course there is no entirely risk free way of going about this, but a recommended teacher is probably
the best way to begin. Certainly it is widely advised that one take a couple of lessons at
the beginning, partly so as to learn how to hold the flute.
All else failing, Grey’s instructional book has helpful info about more or less classical grip for wooden flute,
though he dismisses piper’s grip for bad reasons. But it’s good to know the stuff he teaches.
Oh my! That’s a classic. Thanks for the chuckle.
Okay, I get it. Don’t get technique obsessed. Get on with the music.
Hmmm, I’d say “Get it right, then get on with the music.” I can’t see any reason not to go with what the people who invented and played this style of flute for hundreds of years concluded. Certainly avoid bad habits like left hand playing and pipers grip, which both make subsequent use of keying much harder.
There are several pages on my website dealing with how to hold the flute, and how to get the desired tone, one of which Jim referenced above. To make it easier to find and compare them, I’ve added links to all of them at the bottom of each. So, maybe start at the earliest:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Gunn%20on%20Tone.htm
Terry
Thanks Terry. I’d like to get it right. I’m going to your website.
Equally though, a player learning non-pipers grip will have some difficulties switching to pipers if it becomes necessary.
I used to use non-pipers grip, and, it worked very well for me, but after several years and a bit of aging, I found myself getting numbness in my right hand after playing.
Switching to pipers grip on the right hand cured the problem. I believe that this isn’t uncommon and have seen others posting similar stories.
I found myself getting numbness in my right hand after playing.
I think this only happens if you’re applying pressure in the wrong places. Subtle changes should do the trick.
Equally though, a player learning non-pipers grip will have some difficulties switching to pipers if it becomes necessary.
I used to use non-pipers grip, and, it worked very well for me, but after several years and a bit of aging, I found myself getting numbness in my right hand after playing.
Switching to pipers grip on the right hand cured the problem. I believe that this isn’t uncommon and have seen others posting similar stories.
Sure if you need to change your grip for comfort/age/whatever reasons and a pipers grip is more comfortable then fair enough but if i was starting out I’d go for a grip that could be used on both keyed and keyless flutes - I agree with Terry.
I’ve been looking at keyed flute players on YouTube and I see a number of them (Matt Malloy, Kevin Crawford, and some teachers) with their index and second fingers arched in the left hand, and all of the other fingers flat.
I’m not sure, but it looks like they are using their fingertips on the arched fingers, the pad below the fingertip on the third, and a piper grip on the right hand.
Is this a common grip for the keyed flute? If it is might I want to use it on my key-less, because it works and it wouldn’t hinder me if I get a keyed in the future?
What approach were you using before that, onewheeldave? The modern Boehm flute approach - six holes in line, thumb pad under, fingers curled on top? My feeling is that that isn’t really ideal on the 6-hole flute, and that the previous approach - rotate RH forward, thumb tip pointing into the near side, fingers much less curled - was used for good reason. Half-way to pipers grip, but doesn’t get you into problems with the blocks and keys on a keyed flute.
Terry
Yes- right hand thumb was under, which led to a sharp upward bend in my wrist, which I suspect was causing the numbness.
I could have gone down the road of sticking to non-pipers grip and adapting my grip in more subtle ways, but I feel that I would have been having to concentrate a lot on not letting my wrist slip down into it’s accustomed position, where it would continue to damage the tendons.
Whereas pipers grip was fairly easy to adopt, no danger whatsoever of my wrist wandering back to it’s previous harmful postion, and, as far as I can tell, it’s not adversly affected my playing or speed etc.
I’ve no intention to get into keyed Irish flute in the future, plus, when I do occasionally (very occasionally) get out my boem (orchestral) keyed flute, it’s easy to use the finger pad method again- playing pipers grip on my keyless doesn’t make it harder to play the boem.
If there’s compelling good reasons to use the non-pipers grip, then I’d consider working on it; bit, as things stand, I feel OK with pipers grip.
Out of just plain old unknowing of which is better, I use both pipers grip, and the other one. I’ll just switch back and forth between tunes depending on how my hand responds. If using pipers grip, my LH thumb tends to take a lot of pressure and will start hurting after a while. I’ve been trying to lighten up, but then the flute wobbles a bit, which I don’t like. However, ornamentation is very crisp and clean with pipers grip, and I can play pretty much as fast or slow as I want. When using the “non-pipers grip,” (LH thumb under, curved index, flat middle and ring fingers) the flute is continuously stable, and I don’t end up with a death grip. However, like onewheeldave, my wrist tends to lock at an ugly angle, which isn’t good. I also can’t play as fast. Plus, my A cuts, and B rolls are very mushed and ugly. Also, the tendon on my middle finger starts cramping after a while. So each grip is a trade-off, but pipers seems to be the best for me.
For your consideration, Clover. Hope there’s some help in it.