intro and Separation of fingerwork from breathing

Irish Flute
1

Hi folks,

Happy Easter everyone. I’m Lesl over from the woodie list. I’ve just recently (finally) figured out how to actually read the chiff boards and I’ve been looking at all of them and the archives, what great people in the forums. I play flute and love to read things about what people are saying flutewise and about ITM. I’m in New Jersey usa. We have a couple local sessions, that I dont’ always get to, but we always have house sessions on a Weds night. I play an Olwell keyless flute and recently got a Seery.

I noticed a great post in the archives which I didn’t see much discussion of. Separation of fingerwork from breathing. “When your rhythm disintegrates when you have to breathe in a strange place (ie not at your usual breathing rest), it is because your mind is used to stopping both your fingers and your outward breathing at the same time.”

This is something I’m currently dealing with. I think just playing a tune round and round while varying the breathing can solve this in the long run. But if you were going to do this in the short run, ..

Has anyone got any good ways of specifically practising to separate your fingers and your breathing?

2

No, I don’t, but I wanted to say hello and welcome you. Jim

3

Hi Lesl! It’s great to see you here! :slight_smile:

I don’t have any recommendations except what you’ve already said–just play the tune over and over, maybe breathing at different spots.

I’m glad you’re here.

–James

4

Me three.

I think basically this is an issue of phrasing: there are lots of places in a tune where you could take a breath, but some of them make more musical sense than others. When I’m learning a new tune, I use the process that you describe above: I usually take some time to try out different phrasings (taking a breath at different moments in the tune) to see which phrases work best for the tune and for my lungs. This process lets me figure out what my fingers need to do if I take a breath at point B versus point A. That way, if I’ve happened to stretch one phrase in playing the tune and can’t take a breath in my usual place, chances are better that my fingers have encountered this particular situation before and will know what to do.

Varying the phrasing is an important way of varying the tune, and it’s also a good way to help yourself come up with melodic variations.

5

Hello, i’m new here too, and hopefully i’m not bungling this reply… :boggle:

Phrasing is really where it’s at, it’s the most important part of playing. Much more important than ornamentation, for example. Unfortunately, phrasing doesn’t come easily (at least not to me).

In Irish music, it’s very important to “blow through the bar lines”. Never, or almost never, take a breath at the end of a bar. You want to create that impression of unstoppable movement.

My main problem is that i too often give in to the temptation of playing 4 measures per breath. It works, but it makes things too regular. It’s better to force yourself to take a breath when you don’t need one, sometimes, then sometimes play until you’re almost out of breath. Try not to breath always on the same spot.

What follows is that in Irish music, different from Classical, the breaths don’t necessarily separate the logical phrases of the melody. You strive to breath in a more natural way, as you do when just talking. For example, you don’t breath regularly after each 4 words when you’re talking, right?

It’s easy to describe, but hard, at least for me, to do. I think i’m too analytical with these things. It’s better to not think too much about them. When talking, we never have to think ahead about when we will have to take a breath, do we? That’s the Classical flutist’s curse. :slight_smile:

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I’m not sure that’s what you mean, but I just made up an exercise for this over the weekend: I play scales in the rhythm of the tune I had problems with (which was a jig, so, for the time being, it’s 6/8 for me) and try to leave out the first note of every group of three, then the second, then the third, then the first of a group of six and so on. I try to keep the fingers moving and just hold my breath on that note (breathing in would come next). I found that it is very confusing and completely messes up my scales - as soon as there are notes missing in between, my fingers forget where to go for the scale, so I’m practising really slow.

I’m playing ascending scales to make the matter a bit more complicated (pseudo ABC following):

|: d e f# | e d e | f# g f# | e d e | f# g a | g f# e | d e f# | g a b | a g f# | e d e | f# g a | b c# b | a g f# | e d e | f# g a | b c# d | c# b a | g f# e | d – :expressionless:

This can, of course, be done in any rhythm and with any pattern you like. I hope that getting this down will be the first step to being able to leave out notes anywhere in a tune to breathe when I need (giving me the possibility to decide where I want to do that).

Oh, and I’m doing the exercise on a whistle, but I don’t think that matters much here.

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Wow hi guys, James, Brad, Glauber, and Jim and Skh,

Great to see old friends and new here.

Ok, phrasing, yes. Esp as Glauber said, to blow through the bar lines.

"if I’ve happened to stretch one phrase in playing the tune and can’t take a breath in my usual place, chances are better that my fingers have encountered this particular situation before and will know what to do. "

That’s it exactly, to have fingers prepared for surprises. But I think Brad somehow you “internalixe” these alternate phrasings so that they can come out when you want. Me, there’s still too much pre-planning going on.

Instead of pre-planning, I wish I could take a breath wherever I like (assuming that I dont’ choose somewhere really dopey) and my fingers just keep going. At the moment trying to do this on the fly, maybe 50% of the time my fingers keep going and the rest of the time, train wreck. It seems so haphazard. When you breathe harder or something, the pre-planning might not work. Finger-breath freedom seems to transcend this.

I like these exercises that skh made up, though it sure is hard to do it isn’t it. It certainly is a way to get the fingers and breathing independent of each other. I think I’ll try that out on a tune too, I seem to remember someone recommending that.

Thanks to all so far, more ideas on this would be great.

Why do I think this might be related to practicing on a pencil? It’s hard sometimes to know if you are fingering the right notes on a pencil when you can’t hear the music out loud …

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Well, my experimentation with alternative phrasings really amounts to pre-planning. Typically I spend some time working on the tune to figure out the various places that I’m likely to take a breath, and I work out the fingerings for those alternatives. If something unexpected happens and I have to take a breath in a place in the tune where I’ve never taken one before, I frequently stumble a bit. Nothing wrong with a bit of pre-planning, I think that’s a part of getting to know a tune on the flute. Phrasing comes naturally after a while, you get a feel for where the breaths should go, but even now after more than 25 years of playing I often have to take time to figure out where to breathe in a tune I’m learning.

On blowing through the bar lines, Glauber did qualify his statement by saying “almost never,” but I would emphasize that there are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes, for example, it’s nice to put a hard stop (and breath) for effect at the end of the A part of a tune before moving on to the B. And constant forward momentum isn’t always the goal – take a listen to any recent recording by fiddler Tommy Peoples, for example, and you’ll hear a lot of unorthodox and creative phrasing that makes the tune run in fits and starts. Not everyone’s cup of tea, and you probably have to be a master like Peoples to pull it off well, but it’s great music.

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Sometimes when phrasing a tune I fall back on that old “question and answer” crutch from music school.

This can work well but can mess up the flow and make your playing sound stilted and forced if you approach every tune that way every time through, so, like many other things, it’s probably best used as an effect.

When I get home tonight I’ll record an example of what I mean.

–James

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However, a few tunes work well this way. The one i have in mind is the A part of “Lark in the Morning”.

Variety seems to be the most important thing. Was it Brad who mentioned Tommy Peoples? I do think most flute players aim for the “unstoppable force” kind of playing (or is this another case of rampant MattMolloyism?), but being able to do it the other way, like Tommy Peoples did in that album, introduces variety and is a good thing.

I think the best examples of flute phrasing i’ve ever seen were in the playing of John McKenna: Roundcube Webmail :: Welcome to Roundcube Webmail
It’s very sad that there are no recordings of his available these days. Thing is, he plays very fast, but he divides the melody in small chunks that feel very natural. I’d kill for this kind of phrasing (if it’d help :devil:).

g

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Glauber said

"I think the best examples of flute phrasing i’ve ever seen were in the playing of John McKenna: > http://www.iol.ie/~jfflynn/kenna.htm >
It’s very sad that there are no recordings of his available these days. Thing is, he plays very fast, but he divides the melody in small chunks that feel very natural. "

I agree. Another was Eddie Moloney. There are 7 tracks of him on the old Geezer tape which is still on the web someplace. A different style, Galway, but it is great stuff and great phrases. By the way these fellows do break at bar lines sometimes. I’d say the point is to just vary the phrases for interest and feelings.

Brad said

“Typically I spend some time working on the tune to figure out the various places that I’m likely to take a breath, and I work out the fingerings for those alternatives. … Nothing wrong with a bit of pre-planning, I think that’s a part of getting to know a tune on the flute. Phrasing comes naturally after a while …”

well that puts it in a perspective! I have not stopped often enough to find a way to isolate where and fix my breathe where I’d stumbled, just keep going playing some more thinking it was my fingering the problem. Trying to stick to too rigid a breathing pattern.

Then of course I find a cool variation and then play it every single time over and over sheesh!

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I think that maybe playing along with a recording of a tune that you are learning or don’t know terribly well (or on a recording where the tune is played faster than you usually would) can be helpful. Apart from anything else, having to continue regardless of any fingering or breathing mistakes means that you become aware of the possibility of skipping a note or two, should the need arise, and (after a while) your internal perception of the tune allows you to come back in with the recording after a shorter and shorter amount of time. (The first time you make a mistake, you may need to wait until the next part to start playing again, but, over time, this ‘down time’ will reduce to just a few notes). This is important because your brain’s ability to accurately pinpoint where in the tune you are at a given time helps greatly with phrase variation (and, indeed, mistake recovery and cover-up!); if you want to breathe in X spot, your brain recognises that you will miss Y beats/pulses, but come back in on note Z…
I hope some of this makes sense!
Deirdre

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I envy those of you who can choose when to take a breath… I remember those days. As I get older, with the added complication of a heart problem, I find that I as my oxygen debt increases I have to breathe more frequently. The third time through a four part, fast tune like Lark in the AM I’m hanging on for dear life. In general I find that each time through a tune I HAVE to breath (gasp) more frequently. So where I breathe always varies and over the years I’ve learned to keep my fingers going no matter what my breathing is doing. Do I stumble with all this variation of breathing? Yes, but no more than usual. In fact I find I stumble much more if I don’t breath when needed.

OK, so my point is that everybody is going to end up where I am if you play and live long enough. Phrasing can vary along with everything else in this music. Listen carefully to the “geezer collection” sometime and you’ll see what I mean.

Clark :boggle:

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hello Deirdre,

I recognised your fluter d name, you were the one with the astute post about separating the fingers and the breath!

Did you mean to use the recording as a sort of keeping-your-place in the tune? I like to do that when first learning a tune, until I can play it alone without mistakes. But never tried to vary my phrasing while playing with a recording at the same time. I’ll experiment with that.

But I’ve also now found a way to apply what you said and Brad said, at the same time. I took hold of a hornpipe that used to be uncomfortable the way I was breathing it. I found some new ways to breathe it which gave some cool new phrases. Then, I practiced the new bits, just each section alone, BUT not stopping the fingers from playing the notes that I was “breathing over”. Keeping the fingers going. That’s a way to get a handle on this. (oh.. maybe that’s what you guys meant all along..)

hello Clark,

That is brilliant. That’s what I want to do.

Well thanks guys. If anyone has more ideas keep em coming. I have plenty to work on now though and I’m really enjoying this forum.

Cheers, Lesl

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Hi Lesl

More or less. This is hard to explain! Phrasing is not something I think about a lot at this stage. I can change breathing patterns without too much of a problem, should the need arise, but my breath control is also at the point where I don’t have to worry about running out of air. Usually. :stuck_out_tongue:
However, for me, phrasing (and breathing) has a lot to do with matching the internal tune - how my brain is telling me the tune goes - to what I’m actually hearing - i.e. to my fingerwork & breathing. So, in order to vary phrasing or breathe at a different point, what I effectively have to do is make my fingers return to the tune at the point it’s at inside my head. (I’m starting to sound distinctly neurotic… :boggle: )! However, when I play along with a recorded tune, if I decide to change my phrasing or breathing, I have a fixed reference point to return to, rather than relying solely on my internal metronome (or whatever you’d like to call it) to tell me where I’ll have to come back into the tune.

This is actually a very useful skill. In the event that you go into what you know is the wrong part of a tune, knowing what beat/bar you’re at internally can really get you out of a sticky situation. Trust me. I’m a music student. :smiley:

Something else that may or may not help with phrasing/breathing/fingering is to play a tune, intentionally leaving out notes. I used to do this quite a lot unconsciously (playing while reading). I don’t think my family has ever really forgiven me, so be warned: others may find this intensely annoying. Pick a tune, any tune (a useful phrase from my barking days :smiley: ), listen to it internally, and only actually play maybe half the notes, so you get a disjointed external version. Or only play with your top hand (on whistle, ideally, rather than flute!) so that you’re playing those notes as they arise in your internal tune, keeping the internal rhythm, and only breathing for those notes that you are playing. It can be surprisingly difficult.

Ok. I’ve done enough to destroy friendships for one night! :smiling_imp:
I hope this makes some sense. If it doesn’t, either ignore it or ask!
Deirdre

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Hello Lads
Just a few points which may help.

  • it’s almost never a good idea to keep blowing until you are almost passing out before taking a breath. Take enough breaths to keep you comfortable at all times if possible. Less experienced players will need to take more frequent breaths until they have put in the time to build up the necessary playing stamina. Done well this will not intrude on the melody too much.

  • I’m not sure if continuing to move your fingers while taking a breath is a real help. First of all its kind of pointless in that if you take a breath in a place you are unacustomed to, re-joining the melody as if nothing but a momentary break had occured may not sound good. You need to plan the duration of your breath as well and figure out the consequences (and opportunities) of doing so. Phrasing variety is an important part of playing. In flute playing this is not just restricted to varying your breathing although this plays a large part in it. Generally speaking if you take a breath in a different part of a tune than you are used to it will present new melodic and rhythmic possibilities. Taking advantage of these is what defines your phrasing.

  • learn flexibility at an early stage. I teach beginners simple variations to get them into the swing of adopting a flexible approach to their playing. I teach more advanced students variations even as they learn the basic melody for the same reason. Learing by ear offers an advantage in this area over learning from notation as it offers this flexibililty naturally.

  • Brad mentioned pre-planning. This is excellent advice. Even experienced players will do a certain amount of planning of breaths on a new tune…I sat down to do this on a tune recently only to find that there were absolutely no breath spots in for the first 16 bars..so there’s a big gulp at both ends now!

I hope this helps Lesl.

Beir Bua
Conal
http://www.scoiltrad.com
—the virtual music school

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Not in a tune played for the music, but I find it very helpful as an exercise. I admit that I rather like the meditative, soothing effect that this very concentrated practicing of scales, pentatonic scales and arpeggios (arpeggii?) has on my mind. I’ll also try it with tunes the way Deirdre explained it (my neighbours hate me anyway).

I wouldn’t say that I’m always making music with these exercises (I try to give them as much sense as possible, though), it is a drill, a preparation, a way to find out blocks and knots in my fingers, and it really helps me. And I’d like to be able to just leave out some notes in a really fast tune when I miscalculated my breath or got distracted by teddy bears being thrown on the stage, and still be able to play on.

I’d also like to be able to play tunes fast at all, but you might understand me anyway. :wink:

Sonja

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hi Deirdre, Conal and Sonja,

First I have to laugh because as Conal may or may not remember, my intro to varying my breathing was “but Conal where else could I possibly breathe” ha! and of course I’m still working on it..

I think Deridre and Sonja’s last posts on this were mainly referring to increasing the ability to not get lost in a tune when varying. (please correct me if I’m wrong.) I want to try these different points and see what happens. I think it gives a certain freedom to be able to do that. Catching up if needed and not losing the rhythm, having the fingerings comfortable as a tool rather than an obstacle, all this I think is a matter of reaching the stage of technique-as-second-nature in order to be able to craft a tune tastefully without getting caught up in the tools themselves.

Conal said

…re-joining the melody as if nothing but a momentary break had occured may not sound good. You need to plan the duration of your breath as well and figure out the consequences (and opportunities) of doing so. Phrasing variety is an important part of playing. In flute playing this is not just restricted to varying your breathing although this plays a large part in it. Generally speaking if you take a breath in a different part of a tune than you are used to it will present new melodic and rhythmic possibilities. Taking advantage of these is what defines your phrasing. …

Consequences! Back to the pre-planning board. Yes this helped a lot, thank you. On this thread I was originally looking for a way to not lose fingerings when varying on the fly. But behind all that - trying to vary without doing one’s homework, so to speak, is backwards. It would be like designing a house without a blueprint. Starting to cook a meal before you know what the ingredients are. This takes it onto a whole new level of understanding. I think Brad was referring to this as well.

I aspire to being able to lead off a tune in a session and not trip up if the others wait till the second time round and leave me “solo”. And being able to follow through and keep playing. That means being able to do a decent job of it on one’s own and actually make music rather than just playing a string of notes. I’m sure we all do that sometimes! But confidence is a tricky business when you’re not there yet in your own mind.

Lesl

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Hi Lesl!!! And very welcome!

This thread has given me a lot to think about, thanks!

Heather M.

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Lesl,

I, too, spend time playing through a tune and intentionally changing the phrasing, places I breathe, and vary frequently the notes I may choose to leave out. Just playing through a tune over and over again helps me understand the ‘natural’ phrasing of the tune. This is, in a big way, internalized on some subconscious level. It’s my conscious manipulations of the tune that give me greater flexibility in my playing, for example, having less down time if I stumble, knowing internally where to come back into the tune, and/ or phrase. The more time spent in a conscious effort about breath placement, note omissions, and larger phrasing issues, the more automatic the responses become during playing. Something I do to prepare my fingers for a tune is to play the tune only with the fingerings (while I’m holding the flute in my lap). I suppose I am mentally breathing and phrasing, but my fingers are just doing what they naturally do when playing. It’s kinda like a pre-tune warm-up for my fingers.

Arbo