I’m not good enough yet to do them, nor is my embouchure ready, but I’m still curious. So far, I’ve heard three schools of thought. The first one is, you’ll be able to do long phrases when you’re able to do long phrases, and you can’t rush it. The second is you should practise them until you’re able to do them and nevermind that you’ll run out of air. And the third is don’t do them period!
For me right now, I hear the tune and I always come away with really long phrases, and I can’t figure out how to shorten them. I guess one of the reasons I have trouble is I haven’t yet figured out how to breath and use it as a rhythmic device(I’m not talking about glottal stops cause I know how to do them). When I take breath now while using short phrases, it feels like I’m interupting the tune. And if I do long phrases, the rhythm and flow is good but I run out of air, and then my rhythm gets all screwed up. This doesn’t happen all the tunes I play, but it seems to me that the newer tunes that I’ve learned all have really long unattianable phrases.
So I’m looking for some advice or tips for more effective phrasing, breathing, and flow. Where are good places to breath? Are there better notes to stop and take breaths on? I’d greatly appreciate some advice because this is my current roadblock on the flute.
Since I’ve learned all my tunes by ear this has only been a problem when learning tunes on Midi or learning tunes played on other instruments.
If I’m really struggling with phrasing I try to find the tune played by a fluteplayer. I have gone so far as to email respected flute players and get an actual Quick and Dirty recording of them playing the tune and have used that to learn. Obviously when you learn by ear you can hear where they take breaths and you just follow the same pattern.
Now that I have several tunes under my belt picking up tunes from midi files has become easier and I’m working on finding my own style of phrasing.
Hope this helps, I’m also interested in what more experienced players have to say.
[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2003-02-01 23:35 ]
I feel that developing lung capacity to do longer phrases is simply something that will come with time.
On the other hand if you just aim to do long phrasing and heck care about rhythm, you might end up developing a bad habit.
A good middle ground would be of course to do long tones before you start off as a warm-up. You can push for longer notes here without it affecting your rhythm. Jogging and swimming may help as supplimentary exercises too.
What is probably most important for you is to take note of the places where good flute players breath when you listen to recordings/live performances. This will help you identify places in a tune where breathing doesn’t disrupt the flow, and this will subconsciously be ingrained in your playing too.
After a while, you might also find that most flute players don’t really use extremely long phrasing. Its a combination of quick breaths and strategic breathing spots that give the illusion of long uninterupted phrases. Depending on your prefered style, you might also decide to use breathing spots to help the tune through subtle syncopation and rhythmic variations.
After a while, you might also find that most flute players don’t really use extremely long phrasing. Its a combination of quick breaths and strategic breathing spots that give the illusion of long uninterupted phrases. Depending on your prefered style, you might also decide to use breathing spots to help the tune through subtle syncopation and rhythmic variations.
Eld, that was worded far better than I ever could have.
Jack, this is what I was trying to describe in chat yesterday.
After a while, you might also find that most flute players don’t really use extremely long phrasing. Its a combination of quick breaths and strategic breathing spots that give the illusion of long uninterupted phrases. Depending on your prefered style, you might also decide to use breathing spots to help the tune through subtle syncopation and rhythmic variations.
Eld, that was worded far better than I ever could have.
Jack, this is what I was trying to describe in chat yesterday.
Second that for me. One of the most important things to learn when playing is when to take a breath, which note to drop without losing rhythm, and how to keep going. Often its the dropped note that makes a phrase sound rhythmic – nothing necessarily needs to be “put in” to accentuate this.
The reverse of this, seen most often with beginners, is the long weakening phrase followed by the deep and audible breath. Needless to say, that sounds awful, does nothing for the rhythm, and you see spots after awhile.
Lung capacity does develop, but most playing does not involve huge amounts of air, but rather a focused air stream and well-positioned breaks for air. Where you put these breaths vary with the tune, the style you play (or are copying, if you’re learning a tune from someone). All the advice above is great – listen to where the best players take a breath. Some do it rather frequently, small inaudible breaks you almost don’t catch (because they sound like part of the tune), others go longer and then take more dramatic pause, also making it part of the arrangement, if not part of the tune. Changing the location of these pauses adds interest to the tune, rather than having a here-comes-that-breath-part on each go round.
Many people feel that these breathing spots are a big part of creating the phrasings that identify an individual’s personal style.
In any event, by taking these breaths, the notes that sound remain strong throughout, rather than having any phrase, particularly an end one, weaken as you lose air.
Well… This may sound ridiculous, but I think that the most important skill for phrasing - and especially for adding variety to phrasing - is the separation of fingerwork from breathing. The tendency for the vast majority of people (I think) is to stop moving fingers while taking a breath. When your rhythm disintegrates when you have to breathe in a strange place (ie not at your usual breathing rest), it is because your mind is used to stopping both your fingers and your outward breathing at the same time. If you can breathe and keep moving your hands, then you’re probably halfway there!
Phrasing is really a personal style thing. However, if your breathing breaks make the tune sound disjointed, then that’s not really a good thing. Really, the only way to figure it out is to listen to lots of players. Sorry!
In terms of breath control for phrasing, there is an exercise you can try: start on low D. Play (triplets): DEF EFG FGA GAB ABc Bcd cde def efg fga gab abc bcd’ cba bag agf gfe fed edc dcB cBA BAG AGF GFE DFA dAF DFA dAF DFA… And try to get as much in one breath as possible - with clear notes. It’s also good for your fingerwork - you get quite fast!
Hope some of this makes sense!
Deirdre
Deirdre, what you’ve said makes sense, but – unless I’m misunderstanding you – has little to do with the “when” of when to breath. I do stop my fingers when I stop for breath – once air stops, the note(s) stop. A flute is not a string, which continues to vibrate after being struck. When you go for breath, even in a micro-breath, the sound stops. It is important to make sure that the follow-up note is strong and that you are solidly striking it. Often, after a quick breath, I cut or tap into the following note, since that note is either a down beat or a pulse beat. So, the “holes” I was speaking about should not be random, nor make the tune sound fragmented. Obviously, never take a breath on a downbeat. A good spot, say, is after the first down beat in a measure, perhaps by cutting a dotted note by the “dot” to grab breath, or halving a quarter note.
The hole can be used to accentuate that beat, making the phrase stand out. For example, instead of playing BAB GBd cBc ABc (Humors of Ennistymon), the phrase could be B - B GBd cBc ABc, or BAB GBd c - c ABc (the ‘-’ is a breath; forgot the symbol for rest)
I believe I and others suggested listening to where good players take their breaths, as you have, and, of course, lung capacity will increase in time if that’s a problem, but what was important to say was that phrases don’t have to be long all the time; instead, make room for breath, which, IMO, will (or can) also contribute to punching up a tune’s phrasings.
[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-02-04 10:09 ]
The “moving fingers even while breathing” is an interesting thing. I find that the point where I most often get tripped up in learning a new tune is when I take a breath at a different spot than usual and do something halfway between moving my fingers to the next note they expect (even though it won’t be there without the breath) and moving to the note that follows that (the one that will come after the breath).
When Conal O Grada was here last spring doing a Scoiltrad flute workshop, he made an interesting point about phrasing. When breaking up a tune into phrases, he pointed out how most of us tend to break the phrase at the end of the A part or at the end of the tune. Instead, he suggested that we continue the phrase through these points and break it somewhere after. In other words, break the phrase somewhere before the turn or the end of the tune, at a natural point. Then play a phrase that encompasses the turn and the beginning of the B part, or the end of the tune and the return to the A part, or the return to the beginning of the part on the repeat. Then break the phrase again at some natural point somewhat into the next portion of the tune. This does two things: It gives your playing a great amount of drive without the need for speed, and it creates the illusion of longer phrasing even though you’re not really playing phrases that are any longer than the guy sitting next to you.
On 2003-02-04 08:36, johnkerr wrote:
When Conal O Grada was here last spring doing a Scoiltrad flute workshop, he made an interesting point about phrasing. When breaking up a tune into phrases, he pointed out how most of us tend to break the phrase at the end of the A part or at the end of the tune. Instead, he suggested that we continue the phrase through these points and break it somewhere after. In other words, break the phrase somewhere before the turn or the end of the tune, at a natural point. Then play a phrase that encompasses the turn and the beginning of the B part, or the end of the tune and the return to the A part, or the return to the beginning of the part on the repeat. Then break the phrase again at some natural point somewhat into the next portion of the tune. This does two things: It gives your playing a great amount of drive without the need for speed, and it creates the illusion of longer phrasing even though you’re not really playing phrases that are any longer than the guy sitting next to you.
Yes, this is more what I was trying to get at – much harder to explain (for me) without picking up a flute and showing what I mean. John, you (and Conal) did a better job. When I was first learning how to play Irish music, where to pick breath spots within a tune was a major part of being taught the tunes. Sometimes it’s hard to reconstruct and then put in words what I already do automatically when playing.
I was thinking about the moving fingers thing a bit later, and realized what Deirdre might mean is that things don’t stop as you move to the next part after a breath, particularly if the next note is not the same. So, naturally, if you are taking a breath, you need to be ready to continue, and so the fingers don’t actually stop, but are where they should be when you do continue. If a breath means a halt to everything, then, yes, it would sound stilted if there was a momentary scramble to move on.
Practicing slowly helps this a lot, I think. As you play the tune, you have time to think, imaging a place to breath beforehand, there is ample time to continue, positioning your fingers correctly afterwards. In a race to play fast, these movements become clumsy-sounding, because fingers are often caught mid-strike when the breath continues.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I really don’t think there’s any way to explain or decide on a general phrasing theory - because each tune is different. My point was that sometimes - whether to vary your phrasing, or because you run out of breath - you will need to break the tune at points other than those you’ve planned originally; in this case, you need to be able to breathe independently of your fingerwork. Obviously, taking a breath on a downbeat is not recommended; having said that, though, sometimes it is possible to vary the notes enough to manage just that without making the tune sound ridiculous. It all depends on the tune and your own style.
Ok. Have said the same thing enough times for one week .
Good luck!
Deirdre
Btw, the breathing exercise is meant simply to help breath-control, not to act as a model for phrasing, in case anyone is confused.
Hello Jack
There might be some clue to your problem when you say that on tunes you know well or know for a while the problem of phrasing is less than on new tunes ?
In any event the most important thing to realise about breaths is that they take time to take. So therefore you either need to drop a note or shorten a note to accomodate them. Once you gain a bit of experience you will find that you are able to work in breath points on the fly. Remember that on new tunes if you are playing them slowly, you will need to take more breaths than if you were playing them fast. Also remember to work out more than one breath pattern for a tune so that you aren’t doing the same thing all the way through. Just by way of illustration I have written out a phrase of a jig below (don’t ask me what its called) and marked with an asterisk 3 alternative points to take a breath. Maybe this will help to explain the principle.
AFFdFF/AFBAFD
I have followed this thread tho I don’t flutle (just whistle). Months ago, someone posted the abc to Junior’s The Girl With the Golden Hair etc.
I have found that the scalar pickups are indispensable in phrasing of that tune both in returning to the tune and in going into the turn.
I am mentioning it because its a good one to work on because if you completely eliminate the possibility of breathing at the end of the phrase, you simply must find other places to breathe. I did exactly what Conal suggested too, considering other spots.
Slip jigs seem the hardest tho because they are so often continuous in their phrasing and you hate to sacrifice a note.
