how to adapt a flute with 'old' tuning to whistle fingering

I tried a search but didn’t get what I was after.

Question is:

I have a late Boosey 8 key,Pratten. Using old fingering (venting f# with a f nat key and C# with the Cnat key, using one finger on hole 4 to flaten the A )the flute plays in very good tune.

I haven’t too much experience with modern makers flutes but assume they are made to be played in tune with whistle fingering? eg F# and C# not requiring venting?

If this is so what would be needed to get it to play like a modern flute, tuning wise?

As a related question I know new, longer head joints are sometimes made for antique flutes. How does this improve tuning compared with just extending the slide?

Kevin

I suggest that you take measurements on your flute for bore diameter, tonehole sizes and the distances between their centers. You can then plug these into Pete Kosel’s “Flutomat Calculator” to get the frequencies. Then type in the set of frequencies you desire to change and calculate the outcome. Compare the 2 sets of measurements for any modifications you can “live with”.

http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html

Thomas Hastay
thomashastay@yahoo.com

As for the tuning of modern flutes, assume nothing - it all depends on whether they are intended as accurate copies of originals or “modified for modern use”, even if fully keyed. Also, the compromises involved in even keyless flutes often lead to the open C# and the F# being flat anyway (see recent thread about this feature of Seery’s flutes)- which is why there is the need to vent the keys on the old ones - they weren’t made that way for the hell of it…

One signal advantage the modern flute maker for ITM has over his C19th forebears is that he need only build flutes to be in tune at A=440 with some scope to tune a little either side of that according to environmental circumstances/influences and the occasional tuned a bit sharp or flat context. Another is that he need not (unless he wants to) worry so much about 3rd 8ve response and performance. His scale length and tone-hole distribution and sizing can therefore be better aimed at that specific pitch and the bottom and middle octaves, reducing but not eliminating the conflicting issues. A mid C19th flute maker had to try to allow for tolerably lippable tuning at quite a wide range of pitches from maybe A=430 up to A=455, and where he centred his compromises will be significant to the flute’s friendliness to use at 440 (without it necessarily being a specifically HP instrument). Terry McGee explores all this much better than I can summarise it in various parts of his website. All that said, the modern maker still has to bang his head against the issues of what an average hand can comfortably cope with and other venting and tuning problems in placing and sizing the six open holes.

I would be very leary of tampering unalterably with a top end, highly desirable antique flute - you might well jigger its value even if you successfully “improve” its intonation without obviously damaging it or screwing it up. Anonymous or even named but not majorly desirable mid range ones, OK, go for it, but not R&Rs, Boosey Prattens, etc. You can safely deal with the sharp A by applying a little beeswax in the A tone-hole to flatten it - quite durable and adjustable and totally reversible without damage (I have done this to my R&R). But don’t go enlarging any toneholes - that is effectively irreversible and not so sure a cure as you might imagine, bearing with it the risk of upsetting other notes. Don’t damage your flute. Better to accustom yourself to venting the keys when you have any sustained or prominent F#s or C#s. I do it. Disciplined practise for a few weeks, especially on new-learn tunes, will soon crack it. After all, you have one of the top-end tools - just learn to use it for what it is! Quite a few good modern maker keyed flutes that I have played have still needed venting if one is being finnicky about intonation, and it is one of the reasons I am not a fan of keyless flutes which lack the facility to vent when they often actually would benefit from it! All that said, many of the greats of ITM don’t bother with venting and don’t seem to need it even when playing antiques with, by modern standards, dubious tuning. Unless the flatness is gross, it doesn’t really show in fast passing notes.

All that said, if you have one of the flutes that was definitely built centred on cA=450, the scale length will be rather too short ever to play happily at 440 and you will find you can pull the head well out and either tune the L hand tolerably but have the R hand sharp, or have the R hand in tune but the L hand flat, both of which show badly across the break. Adding a longer head will reduce the amount of tuning slide you have to open, but won’t change the distance between the embouchure hole and the tone-holes at whatever pitch you chose to tune to… modification of the scale by replacing the body with one scaled for modern use (rather than the head) would be more logical, or re-reaming the bore and enlarging some of the tone-holes or even stopping them up and redrilling them would be necessary - not a DIY job, and again, I’d say, not the thing to contemplate doing to a good antique. Better to leave it be and play something else if you can’t modify it sufficiently non-invasively and adapt yourself to using it as it was designed to be used.

Kara Lochridge is expert on retuning old flutes.
She is in business doing this and you can find her by searching.
She’s a great one for these questions, love flutes,
lovely person.

Our own JonC is another expert on all this. You can PM him.
Great resource, another labor of love.

If you are comfortable playing the flute as is, there is something
to be said for letting well enough alone.

If you are comfortable playing the flute as is, there is something
to be said for letting well enough alone.

Or even if you’re not.

Before trying to retune that flute, check out some of the flutes by modern makers. See if they are tuned as differently as you think they may be.

You may be able to make that old flute play differently, but I really doubt any modifications would actually make it play better.

–James

I’d do nothing without doing an RTTA analysis of what actually happens when you play the flute. It will probably confirm your suspicions, but you may learn some other important things as well.

Now that I’ve been using RTTA routinely for the last 6 months or so, I’m all the more convinced of its importance to us. Don’t leave home without it!

And it’s completely free, starting at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm

Terry

much thanks to all for very usfull replies.

I think I’ve been suffering tuning fears that most wooden flute players have to deal with. I have developed a pretty good sence of tuning, e.g. I can tune my fiddle by ear, then check it with a tuner and it’s spot on. Trouble is I think my tuning skills are not quite as good as some peoples. I’ve suffered the ‘why don’t you get a flute that’s in tune’, strangly enough mostly from a player whose own sence of tuning is ‘lax’!, but also comments from others that I would fully respect. I think there are two reasons for this. When in a group of players suffering mushey tuning and where I can’t hear myself clearly. I play in a ‘semi pro band’ and the set up our sound man gives us is not the best. Having said that I expect that is not uncommon even for top pros with ‘good?’ sound engineers.

Well the scale length of the flute is in the modern pitch range. It plays in very good tune using the venting etc. I do vent / damp on the longer notes of reels and jigs etc (for F# C# and A, B is not a problem). I can clearly hear these notes slightly off if I don’t adjust them. I don’t adjust the shorter notes. I expected it would be close enough to be not noticeable. Not sure. I think the main problem is mushey tuning situations and situations where I can’t hear myself well enough. I’m normally set up too far back from the monitors.

From your replies I conclude that the problem is more me than the flute. I need to learn, and hone, how to hold tuning in difficult situations… eg pay attension to one instrument when playing with a group where some are a bit off. Target that and hold it. At present I haven’t worried a whole load and drift slighty, say back and forward between a slighty off tune guitar and a in tune lead instrument.

Terry

I think I will take up the very fair offer of RTTA at that very resonable price. I would be usefull for me to compare my modern but unkeyed flute to the Boosey. Using your unreal time tuner I know F# and C# are not quite spot on. The modern unkeyed (a good flute) is probably slightly better than the Boosey unvented but not as good as the vented Boosey.

all woodwinds have inherent tuning issues

the Boehm flute isn’t real bad
clarinet, sax, oboe all suck big time
the conical flute is generally somewhere in between (varies quite a bit from flute to flute)

each tone is going to take a slightly different embouchure
just life :smiley:

Just a few notes on the Boehm system flute:

The open C-sharp has a horrible, fragile tone compared with the rest of the instrument’s range, and is sharp. If you pull it down closer to pitch by adjusting its venting, then it will sound “veiled” and weak.

There is a sharp contrast in tone between the first octave and the second, with a definite “break” between the octaves that’s extremely difficult to cross over smoothly.

The entire third octave tends to be sharp. In adjusting for this, too many players sacrifice tone quality.

Third-octave E-natural can be a very hard note to hit solidly without it’s tone sounding abrasive. Some flutes get around this with a “split-E” key, which helps this note at the expense of ruining some of the trills in the third octave.

High C-natural (the 3rd above middle C) is a real screamer. This note will make a trumpet player wince. A dentist’s drill sounds pleasant by comparison.

The key mechanism on a well-adjusted, well-maintained flute will be very close to silent. Unfortunately, for every well-maintained flute, there are thirty with keys that sound like they belong on the business end of earth-moving equipment.

All of that said, it’s a wonderful instrument in the hands of a good player. Some people point to Sir James, and he’s ok, but if you really want to hear the Boehm-system flute at its best, listen to J.P. Rampal.

–James