How do You learn, (long, but on topic)

How do/did you learn?

I’ve been at this for a bit over a year, with no prior musical experience, and i still suck - a lot!. I must be the most un-musical person on the planet.

This is the general road map i’ve been following. Please note, this is a guide, not a schedule, I’m not saying “after a year, i should be able to do A.” It’s a journey, not a destination, and all that.

  1. Absolute beginning. Make 2 octaves worth of screeches on the whistle.
  2. Learn a few tunes (10-15 ???) well enough to play from memory at a decent speed.
  3. Go back to tunes learned in step 2 and really work on tempo, rythm, lift, whatever you want to call it.
  4. a.Ornaments, start working them into your tunes.
    b. go back to step 3 and make sure oranments don’t screw up rythm.
  5. Build up repertoire, speed, expressiveness…

Right now, i’m stuck between 2 + 3. I can play a few tunes (no jigs or reels yet), and can learn new ones pretty quickly, but. They all sound really flat and mechanical. Kinda like Al Gore.
Because they sound flat and boring, I want to start adding ornaments, but my fingers aren’t that quick yet.

It’s a bit discouraging sometimes to hear other people sounding so much better. Other times, it encouraging to pick up a new tune much quicker than before.

I attend a weekly session that is extemely accessable for beginners and that is a tremendous help. People there will show you tunes. They’ll ask, “So what are you working on?” and then play it nice and slow.

Discussion points.

  1. How long did it take it you to get to point 3 or 4?
  2. Did you start doing ornamentation early or late in the learning process?
  3. When you reach a plateau in your playing, do you keep pounding on it until you break through, or do you work on some other aspect, and then come back to the problem area?
  4. Anything else you care to add.

p.s. I’m having fun and even my long-suffering wife says i’m getting better, so i’m not completely hung up on all this stuff.
Just wanted to sound out other people on the board. And to make amends for so many off-topics posts.

Thanks all.
jb

Another disussion point. Practice.
How much do you practice?
How do you practice.

For example.
I practice alot, at least an hour a day, but it’s mostly unstructured twiddling. i.e. playing the tunes I already know over and over again.
Only 1 or 2 half-hour blocks per week are spent on disciplined practice, with a tutorial or slow-down software.

Regards,
jb

Hello there! I started playing whistle two months ago and have reached somewhere between 3 and 4. Of course, I can not play the tunes very fast, but in tempo and without too much noice. One should keep in mind though that I spend all my spare time practicing music related stuff and that I also have played recorders and similar instruments before the whistle. That helps alot! I practice between 3-4 days a week and then for about one hour. I think that it’s just a matter of training. If you just keep it up you will soon be much better!

Hi Brownja,

I’m only a beginner on whistle too, and I’m really undisciplined, I just play what I want, when I want, but recommend recording your playing and listening back as very helpful. Also playing against a metronome can help tremendously with timing if this is a problem area.

I recommend you check out Brother Steve’s website for a good tutorial, http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/

I think he comes over very nicely as instructive but not patronising, which can be a tricky line to follow.

What sorts of tunes are you playing at the moment?

I’m a big fan of Slow Airs, and these are really why I play whistle - slow airs sound rubbish on my Mandolin, even using Tremolo style picking. They’re a good starting point for beginners like us, being slow, and also allow time to try a few ornaments, plus they can be played with loads of feeling, whereas polkas, jigs, reels and the like all need very strict rhythm.

Hey, I have been playing for 24 years and I am between 2 and 3.

Joe

“…with a tutorial or slow-down software.”

Wow! What’s this? Sounds useful.

Brownja: in between your steps 1 and 2, you’re missing 2 or 3 other steps. I started learning 3y ago (having previously been a harper), working with a pipe teacher who instructed according to your steps. After a year I got nowhere fast, then my teacher moved to another part of the country and I was teacherless for 6m till I started a year ago with my present teacher.

He started me all over again, saying I’d been taught wrong. For 9-12 MONTHS he had me doing nothing but fingering exercises, scales, arpeggios, breath control, finger positioning (mine stuck up all over the place which is correct for harping, but not for whistling). He refused to let me near a tune till he was satisfied I had the basics under control.

Then when I did get on to a tune, I was far better than I had ever been before. So after a total of nearly 15 mths with this bloke, I’m much improved - AND I’m nowhere near ornaments (in his eyes). “NEVER do ornaments till you have perfected the tune”. Doesn’t matter if it’s the Al Gore of whistling, get it note-perfect first.

And has everyone else has said, keep on practising. ten minutes a day of quality practice is better than an hour of tweaking.

Hope that helps! (there’s plenty of we beginners on this site)

On 2002-03-12 09:00, brownja wrote:
Another disussion point. Practice.
How much do you practice?
How do you practice.

For example.
I practice alot, at least an hour a day, but it’s mostly unstructured twiddling. i.e. playing the tunes I already know over and over again.
Only 1 or 2 half-hour blocks per week are spent on disciplined practice, with a tutorial or slow-down software.

Just my $0.02, but my experience is that 10 minutes of really focused practice is worth an hour of twiddling. When we twiddle, we tend to play things which we enjoy playing, which is usually the things we play well. Thus, what we can play gets better, and what we can’t remains untouched.

One great way is to record yourself, listen to what didn’t work, and play just that piece until it does. It’s brutal, but it really gets results. Once you’ve done this for a while, you can skip the recording phase, because what you are really doing is training yourself to listen to every note you play.

Richard

In addition to how much you practice, there’s also the question of what your goal is. Do you (realistically) want to sound like a pro, do you want to hold your own in a session, or do you just want to play as a minor hobby?

I’m in category three. I actually consider my intrest somewhat more than minor, but have no desire to play with others. I play probably 2-4 hours/week, nothing really structured. In the last few months, I have started practicing ornaments by themselves for a few minutes – this has probably helped some, but I’m not sure if ten minutes worth of that is worth an hour of unfocussed practicing as DrRichard suggested. I suppose this is an area where individual results vary.

I had some musical background and played mostly by ear before starting the whistle, so I had a leg up before trying to learn tunes. I probably had a dozen tunes under my belt within a few months. For me the big step has been from 3-4 (adding ornaments). I’ve been playing for 3-4 years.

One thing I’d like to point out is that my progress tends to come in fits and starts. I know other people who also progress this way. I’ll go sometimes six months, working slowly and making little progress. Then, possibly even when I’m not playing, something will come to me in a flash. This happened two days ago – I was just playing along, and something happened that I can’t explain, but I was suddenly able to make one of those “whistle sounds” that I hadn’t been able to make before.

Charlie

I’ve been playing the tin whistle for about 3 1/2 years and Irish flute for about 3. I played boehm flute for awhile in high school before that, so I was already familiar w/ playing music. It was only a minor hobby for me until a year ago when I finally started to be able to play music by ear. This gave me a big boost in self-confidence and I became Irish music obsessed : )
I practice the flute for any where from 1/2 hour to 2 hours/ day (this quarter has been so bad though that its really cut into my practice time) and I leave a whistle out by the computer and I pick it up and play off and on throughout the day.
I don’t get to hung up on ornements. I use a lot of cuts, taps, and slides, but rolls are still tough for me. It’s just a matter of time and practice. Rhythm and breathing are more important anyway. It took me a really long time to get to the point that my breathing didn’t interfere with my playing.

Here’s another probably obvious suggestion (but it’s been working for me). Listen, listen, and listen some more. The more you get the tunes in your head–to the point you can hum them walking down the hall to the rest room–the easier they’ll come when trying to coax them from your whistle.

I can start slow and all that, but I still need to know what it’s supposed to sound like to get anywhere.

BTW: my ornamentation seems to be cuts and some rolls right now. I’m not sewating the ornamentation–as others have suggested–until I can nail the tune metrically. My fellow session players MUCH prefer I hit the notes on time, than throw in all the fancy stuff.

Chas, good point! The goal IS important. I have no desire to be considered a whistle pro. I play for personal pleasure and for the pleasure of playing in sessions.

Toward the first goal, I play and practice what I want. Toward the second goal, I need a more structured approach. In session it starts with “What was that set?” because I hear them play something I like. I find those tunes and try to learn them from sheet music, remembering the way our fiddler/primary whistler/concertina player handle them…THIS part of my process takes weeks sometimes.

Aside: I put some ornamentation in right from the beginning, such as cutting between two notes of the same pitch, cranns on D and E at the end of tunes. Some of it just comes naturally even as I pick out a tune.

Frankly, if anyone expected me to do only exercises for so much as one lesson, no less months on end, I’d either have given up on the instructor or on the instrument. I’m awed that Nick pursued this route. If you’re happy with the result, I guess that’s the most important thing, but I’d rather work on a tune that encorporates an exercise.

Actively playing with others has improved my ear, speed, tempo, repertoire more than anything else I’ve done, I think.

Frankly, if anyone expected me to do only exercises for so much as one lesson, no less months on end, I’d either have given up on the instructor or on the instrument. I’m awed that Nick pursued this route. If you’re happy with the result, I guess that’s the most important thing, but I’d rather work on a tune that encorporates an exercise.

PYTHAGORAS is reported to have required
from those whom he instructed in philosophy a
probationary silence of five years. Whether this
prohibition of speech extended to all the parts of
this time, as seems generally to be supposed, or
was to be observed only in the school or in the
presence of their master, as is more probable, it was
sufficient to discover the pupil’s disposition; to try
whether he was willing to pay the price of learning,
or whether he was one of those whose ardour was
rather violent than lasting, and who expected to
grow wise on other terms than those of patience
and obedience.

Sam Johnson - Rambler No. 178. SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1751

This may have been said before, but I believe taking lessons is extremely helpful when learning an instrument. Not only will you not pick up as many bad habits, but you will be accountable to someone - assuming they are a good teacher and care about your progress - and therefore will tend to practise the important stuff as opposed to just playing what you are comfortable with.

I started flute lessons in the Fall and having played the whistle for many years was much more comfortable playing the whistle. Whenever I would practise, if the whistles were close by, I would automatically pick up a whistle and waste my practise time. Of course my teacher noticed my lack of progress and we had a chat. He laid out a structure for my practise time and I put the whistles at the other end of the house…needless to say the progress has been much better.

Also I have found that 20-30mins a day is a lot more effective than a couple of hours every few days.

Just my 2c

Best of Luck

On 2002-03-12 10:15, chas wrote:
In addition to how much you practice, there’s also the question of what your goal is. Do you (realistically) want to sound like a pro, do you want to hold your own in a session, or do you just want to play as a minor hobby?

I’m in category three. I actually consider my intrest somewhat more than minor, but have no desire to play with others. I play probably 2-4 hours/week, nothing really structured. In the last few months, I have started practicing ornaments by themselves for a few minutes – this has probably helped some, but I’m not sure if ten minutes worth of that is worth an hour of unfocussed practicing as DrRichard suggested. I suppose this is an area where individual results vary.

Charlies, I think you’re absolutely correct actually :slight_smile: I had very blinkered vision when I wrote my response, which I think you touch on in your preamble - people have different things they want to get out of their instrument! Also, just playing around is extremely effective when you are still feeling your way around the instrument. I was thinking (but didn’t say) about players who are (a) already comforable with the instrument (b) looking to really get that “pro” sound - at which point, practice must center around weaknesses.

I think you’ve made a very good clarification here!

Richard

Nickt wrote-
“…with a tutorial or slow-down software.”
Wow! What’s this? Sounds useful

Any thing from Microsoft. Seriously, I use Transcribe, just not often enough.

For 9-12 MONTHS he had me doing nothing but fingering exercises, scales, arpeggios, breath control, finger positioning

I’d be Very interested is hearing some details about the exercises you did. Maybe you could start an “Exercises, Scales, Arpeggios” thread.

there’s also the question of what your goal is.

  1. To have fun.
  2. To be good enough in a few years to get my son started.
  3. To be able to go to a session and participate without disrupting others.

Thygress wrote-
I’m awed that Nick pursued this route. If you’re happy with the result, I guess that’s the most important thing, but I’d rather work on a tune that encorporates an exercise.

Most people would seem to agree with you. Nick is the first I’ve heard of going that route on the whistle. A lot of tutorials have you learning a jig by page 5!!
Something in the middle might be more suitable for mere mortals.


Looks like recording myself and more focused practicing are the first modifications to road map.

Thanks to all for your comments, keep 'em coming.
jb






[ This Message was edited by: brownja on 2002-03-12 13:38 ]

On 2002-03-12 12:54, brownja wrote:

PYTHAGORAS is reported to have required
from those whom he instructed in philosophy a
probationary silence of five years. Whether this
prohibition of speech extended to all the parts of
this time, as seems generally to be supposed, or
was to be observed only in the school or in the
presence of their master, as is more probable, it was
sufficient to discover the pupil’s disposition; to try
whether he was willing to pay the price of learning,
or whether he was one of those whose ardour was
rather violent than lasting, and who expected to
grow wise on other terms than those of patience
and obedience.

Sam Johnson - Rambler No. 178. SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1751

There you have it JB, to play your whistle better, don’t make a sound with it for 5 years. :wink:

Actually that goes with the pipers cliche,
7 years listening
7 years learing
7 years practicing

First I would suggest choosing the method of practice that you enjoy. If you choose a method of practice you do not like, you are less likely to keep at it.

Second, I would try to practice with recordings. Don’t worry about the ornaments, until you can play the tunes straight. If you do ornaments automatically, so much the better. Until you try to unlearn them to try it another way, that is.

I have started using the Scoiltrad.com lessons. One of the things that Scoiltrad lessons do is that the tunes are played at 50% speed, and 80% speed for when you get better. Not slowed down, but played slow. They have a loop function for each part. You can listen and loop each part of a tune and then put it together later. They have (usually 2) specific ornaments to master. They also have two variations on parts in there. The best part is you record a sample of your playing and they give you very constructive feedback on how to improve your playing.

I think mastering a few tunes is a great thing to do early on. I was playing 2 years before I got to 12-15 tunes, and they were not that good. I think in mastering one tune, you will learn how to learn, which will make your subsequent learning easier and more fun.

I also find that when I find some structure for my practice session, I always get more out of it than just playing some tunes I like.

Recently I found that trying to learn as many tunes as possible has caused some of my other playing abilities to erode. Hence, you must sharpen all the teeth of the saw lest some become dull.

I’ve been playing about 7 years now…spent the last 6 months or so in a celtic band. Of course, I can only speak for myself with what worked for me.

I started off playing “minstrel boy” and “old macdonald” for 2 months until I got the Bill Ochs tutorial. That book is a pleasure..it’s 10 ‘lessons’ structured from easy to more complex. Each lesson seemed to exercize different fingering and rhythm problems. Each lesson has theory as well as several tunes, and this kind of structured lesson plan really suited me. Practicing 4-6 hours a day, I blew through the entire lesson plan from start to finish in like 6 months.

In the back of the book are a bunch of additional tunes, and I pretty much learned them in order…the book suggests spending a couple years working on rhythm and stuff before attempting ornaments, though I must confess that I started experimenting with cuts about 18 months into my practice and slides shortly after that. I didn’t start working on complex ornaments such as multiple cuts, rolls, etc, until much later. Once I decided to learn them, they came rather quickly, because I was already quite at ease with the instrument. During the time I was first experimenting with the more complex ornaments, the Bill Ochs book was less helpful to me than L.E. McCullough’s 121 Irish Session Tunes, and I got some neat ideas from Play Pennywhistle Now (AKA Step One: Pennywhistle or something like that).

I still practice about 30 hours a week–with the baby, I don’t have much time to practice on a daily basis any more, but I devote 2 evenings a week to session, and 2 evenings a week to band practice (and no evenings a week to the TV!).

I’ve never practiced arpeggios, or any other ‘exercize’ other than learning tunes…if I run into a difficult passage, I practice it over and over again slowly, until I can play it with confidence, and then slowly speed it up.

A lot of folks often seem to be in a big hurry to acquire all the complex skills…give it time, and patience, and practice, and they’ll come much easier. Luckily, I had already learned this lesson in my martial arts practice…You can’t expect a white belt to execute a good jump spinning hook kick, and you can’t expect a beginning whistler to execute a good-sounding cran. :wink:

Greg

There you have it JB, to play your whistle better, don’t make a sound with it for 5 years. > :wink:

Now, if we could just convince the Bodhran players!

In addition to this forum, I subscribe to several harmonica related mail lists. A gentleman by the name of Winslow Yerxa recently posted an idea to the Harp On! Group regarding the process of learning a new song.

Winslow is a long-standing member of several of the harmonica groups and is an exemplary player, musician, and author… I wouldn’t miss reading one of his posts.

With his permission, I am putting his entire post on this forum. He is proposing an interesting supplementary approach to learning a new tune, certainly an approach worthy of further consideration and a try. He would also appreciate any feedback from this forum on his idea.

Winslow said:

To: harpon@yahoogroups.com
From: winslowyerxa@yahoo.com
Mailing-List: list harpon@yahoogroups.com; contact harpon-owner@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:02:47 -0000
Subject: [Harp On!] The additive method of learning melodies

The standard wisdom for learning new music is to start at a slow tempo that allows you to get to the next note on time. At first it may take time to think about what the note is, how to play it on the instrument, and then to actually do whatever it takes to make the note come out. As you gain mastery at a slow tempo, you bring the tempo up a little, learn it at that tempo, then increase the tempo again, and so on.

I’m thinking about a supplementary method - not a replacement, just another tool along with the method described above, to help “surround the problem”. The supplementary method I call the additive method. Here’s how I see it working.

Start with the first two or three notes of the melody. Play them in time, and at a fairly quick tempo, as quick as you can manage comfortably. Let’s say these are the first three 8th notes in a measure of 4/4. You play those first three 8th notes, and then - this is IMPORTANT - you wait out the rest of the measure. Then, you play the first three notes again, wait out the remainder of the measure again, and keep doing this over and over until it comes with assurance.

You wait out the remaining time in the measure so as to keep the notes in context. If you just kept cycling the three notes without pausing, you would be teaching yourself to go from the last of the three notes right back to the first note, instead of to the fourth note, which is the next thing we add.

OK, so you can make the first three notes in time and with assurance. Now, you add the fourth note of the melody, playing the first four notes, then waiting the remaining time in the measure. You keep repeating the first four notes this way until all four notes come smoothly. Once you can do the first four notes, you do the first five, adding one note each time you have mastered those that come before. And on you go.

I see two possible advantages to this method.

One advantage is that you learn material at a quick tempo. The start-slow-and-work-your-way-up method has one potential weakness, in that the nervous system (mine, anyway) seems to treat quick reflexive actions and slow, deliberate ones very differently, and the additive method is a way of dealing on the level of the quick, reflexive action. This could be helpful if you find that there is a certain tempo threshold, where you can play a piece well at a certain tempo, but have trouble playing the whole piece at a slightly faster tempo. Such an instance might be a good place to bring out the additive method as a sort of specialized power tool.

The other advantage is that the additive method allows you to deal with each difficulty, one at a time, in sequence, and master it before going on. This allows learning at a faster tempo. The slow method, by contrast, forces you to deal with the whole melody or passage and every difficulty in sequence. Therefore the tempo has to be slow enough to deal with everything in the whole passage. This is the gentle, organic, method that makes you learn the melody as a whole. It’s slow but powerful. It’s also a bit daunting, due to the ground you may have to cover with all its perils, and the patience it requires. The additive method allows you to conquer every difficulty one at a time, in sequence and in tempo. It doesn’t put you in the context of the complete melody, only the “story so far.”

In a way, the additive method is just another version of something everyone does, which is to break the tune down into smaller sections that may reflect a phrase or perhaps a problem area, and work on those before putting them back into context. Only here, everything is done at tempo and from the beginning. It’s just a question of how far from the beginning you get, which is always incremented by one note.

As I said before, I don’t consider the additive method as a main method. I see using it in conjunction with the slow method.

I haven’t put this method into practice. It’s just an ideas that came to me yesterday on my Sunday morning stroll, and I used it in my head on a melody that I already “knew” intellectually in that I could tell you what the notes are or even write them down, but hadn’t learned to sing or play in real time.

I’m curious about what other players and teachers think about this method - whether you’ve tried it and what you found if you did, or any other observations.

Winslow


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[ This Message was edited by: CDon on 2002-03-12 17:16 ]

Just keep working on it. Don’t play because you feel it’s something you have to do, or something you need to do… play because you love it.

With me, it took me about one week to be able to play at a higher level, but I didn’t really get serious about ornamentation until about 6-8 months ago. (I’ve been playing for 1 year and 5 months) But then again, I come from a family of musicians, and had been in Band (Alto Sax) for 4 years, and had a lot of previous musical experience (Piano, Violin, Guitar…).

Still can’t play by ear well yet though.

I guess I’m basically trying to say that it differs with every person. I’ve seen people pick up an instrument and can play well in weeks, and I’ve seen people who go from instrument to instrument until they find one that just ‘clicks,’ or people who play an instrument for many years just to be able to play well, and then there’s everything in between.

Play because you love the music, and you enjoy playing it.