Frustration!

I am getting very frustrated with my progress in learning the whistle. I’ve been playing for about 10 years and have “plateaued” at a much lower level than I would like. I know and play about 40+ tunes and have learned most of them by downloading the sheet music off web sites such as Wild Dismay or the Session.

I probably do the best job on slow airs and waltzes, although I can get up to a moderate speed on selected jigs, reels, etc. I have pretty decent tone and it does sound like music when I play. People who don’t know any better think I’m pretty good. I have played a few times in public. I think my main problem is with my speed, lack of ornamentation, etc. (Maybe lack of overall talent)

I live in the Winston-Salem, NC area and have not had much luck meeting other Celtic/ Irish musicians who are interested in playing together. I would also really like to find a music teacher who can help me get “over the hump”.

Several months ago I purchased the “Complete Irish Whistle Tunebook” that comes with the 6 CD’s. Each tune is featured on the CD as a practice version and a performance version. Generally, even the practice version is too fast or has a ton of ornamentation. The author is very blasé about being able to learn all 120+ tunes, “so that one will have the basics to participate in a session”. I figure it will take me about 10 years to work my way through the book.

I have read that Irish music is supposed to be learned by ear, and I can play some tunes that way. Most of the performers I have heard play their music blisteringly fast with lots or ornamentation. My ear isn’t talented enough to pick up the tunes that way.

Any suggestions?

Paulsdad

Hi Paul’s Dad,

I can sooooo relate. :laughing:

A few things I’ve learned… (no claims to expertise, just a listing of things noted)

Don’t get caught up in the ‘speed is better’ line… it isn’t.

Do listen to the folks you really like. If you want to play a particular style, listen to that style by the best players you can get your hands on… and listen to it a lot.

Do take some time to really listen to the tunes you hear others play, identifying the separate phrases of the tune as it goes through its repetitions. Try to whistle (not with your instrument) or sing the tune with the recording, and get it into your head. Include all the ornamentation you can identify.

Get one of those ‘slow-downer’ programs if you can. It will help you get some of the timing and ornamentation figured out.

Keep the time with your foot. This is more important than you might think. Use a metronome or click-track to keep you honest while you practice.

Play along with recordings when you can, to get used to keeping up, and to get used to jumping back in if you get lost.

Play with other people when you can. It’s loads more fun.

Biggest thing for when you are playing with other folks - Tune to them, or all tune to a tuner.

Play, practice, play some more… practice some more…

Stick with it.

Oddest thing i’ve learned - take a break from it once in a while - I recently took a break from playing very much at all for about two months (life has this annoying habit of throwing obstacles in your way)… after that break, even though I was rusty, I also was better at some things. I’ve noticed this a few times throughout my life.

Most important of all - have fun!

woww! 10 years! you already must be a Kevin kraford xD….! now in serious, you must play very calm, without hardships, I I delay in learning a song two weeks perfectly, do not have hardships, I enjoy every moment. it makes your recordings so that you are listened to and you seen your advances, that raises the car much considers. luck

We all want to get better. I, personally, probably will never be able to play anything super fast, certainly not anything like “Pigeon on the Gate”, but I’m gonna keep on practicing because I enjoy it.

Annie had some good points. I’ve found for myself that often this “hump” or “wall” is caused by just thinking too hard or trying too hard. I don’t think that means you need to put your whistle down, though that could be a good approach for some, but maybe try making sure that you are playing for fun just as much as you are playing for practice and skill development… even your casual tooting makes your fingers more and more comfortable on the whistle with each tune.
Ornamentation is a habit and a muscle memory just like fingering the notes. There are very few basic ornaments on the whistle and then there are combinations of those to create more elaborate ornaments. The key thing is to practice slowly and not rush it. Speed is not King. If you can’t play well then you can’t play well fast. I’d rather hear a good player at a modest speed than a mediocre player at lightning speed. Practice your most basic ornaments (cuts and taps) slowly and accurately and then when your fingers have learned them well, put them together. Practice rolls and other ornaments on every note of the whistle and then when you have to throw one into a tune it won’t be so foreign.

Best wishes.

I am in a similar boat. I’ve been playing more than ten years. I am self conscious when I meet session players or bluegrass players, because I don’t know their tunes, I can’t play at speed.

For a while it bothered me and I made a modest effort towards learning some Irish tunes. It was maddening, frustrating, and not a lot of fun.

What did I decide? To forget about it, at least for now. I play the music I like to play, mostly original tunes. I tell myself that I am very good at what I do. That some folks on the other side of the fence might envy the substantial talent and body of work that I possess.

I often remind newcomers to the board to “enjoy your music.” Without that, it isn’t going to stick. It isn’t a chore, it is a hobby that is supposed to be fun. Very few are going to be recording in a studio.

That said, if a person really wants to get better, there are many online resources, virtual sessions and the like, that there is more access than ever. Some of it is talent based. A person’s manual dexterity, lung capacity, natural ear for music are a base. Some start from a low base and have to work three times as hard, as someone with a lot of natural talent. Whether it is worth all of that, is up to each person. For me the answer right now is, it’s not worth it. I have what I have and it is a great. I have touched many people with my music in so many ways.

you might try Whistle This and get some feedback on your playing

Good advice. It’s also easier to find minimally-ornamented versions of the tunes there.

I purchased my first whistle in the late '90s, so it sounds as if we both started around the same time. For me, this was the first instrument that I ever attempted to learn and play. I too have gone through many periods of improvement, only to find myself stuck at a plateau - so I feel your pain.

Given my late start (and the law of averages) I try to be realistic in regards to my ability. I know that I am never going to be as good as Paddy Maloney, Kevin Crawford, etc. Let’s face it, these guys are in a whole other league. Although I do understand the desire to improve, I would recomend working on your own style, and to make sure you “get the most” out of every note. I will take a tune played at a leisurly pace that sounds good over one played fast that sounds “muddy” any day.

One other thing, if you haven’t discovered Micho Russell yet, I would highly recommend his CD titled “Ireland’s Whistling Ambassador.” Micho is regarded as one the greats of all time, and he is also noted for using ornamentation sparingly. Every time I listen to him I realize that he never wasted a note, and never put one in where it wasn’t necessary.

Kerry

That really sums it up for me. It’s not about how many notes you play per unit time, but how you play them together in a string. Maybe great players can play fast if they choose, but when they play, it’s not usually real fast. A non-whistle example that leaps to mind is Eric Clapton’s guitar work. It’s real easy to play most of his songs. It’s really hard to sound like Claption.

I, too, have been stuck on learning by ear, and I’d like to second the recommendation to get some kind of slowdown software. I’ve been using Audacity (too lazy to figure out how to put links in here - it’s www.audacity.com - it’s free) and have found it very helpful - you can slow down a whole tune, or a section, and you can set it to play a selection over and over. Also, you can easily record yourself, if you want, and you can generate a click track, if you don’t have a metronome, to play along with.

This is restating the obvious for most readers, but programs like Audacity also allow you to multi-track your recordings, (e.g. lay down a guitar rhthym, play your flute, whistle, or fiddle over that, and then add even more tracks). It’s great practice for session playing, and it can be very addicting.

I just use the slow down feature built into Media Player.

Jason

I’d say find a good whistler to watch over your shoulder. I a beginner, and got 5 lessons grom an Irish guy who has played from his childhood on. From listening to him and letting him teach me things giving me directions, I learned more than I can ever learn from a paper or even a recording I think. In a while I might take another set of lessons. Please try it, you won’t regret it.

If that’s the tunebook by McCullough or whatever his name is, then I’m not surprised you’re having a hard time keeping up with his ornamentation. To be honest I don’t like anything about his playing style. I think he goes way overboard on his ornamentation especially considering the book is supposed to aimed at beginners. It’s like he’s just showing off his skills but to me he sounds terrible.

I think you’d be much better off learning your tunes from books like these from Waltons:
http://waltons.ie/shop/product_info.php?products_id=7801

Or from whistlethis.com as Peter said.

PAULSDAD – I empathize; playing Irish music on the whistle sounds and looks easier than it is, as you’ve discovered.

I managed to figure it out by stumbling along and getting incredibly lucky in meeting a wonderful assortment of musicians who generously shared their music and knowledge. Last time I was in NC, there were a bunch of fine players, so just keep reaching out. You’ll find your musical soul crew.

In terms of marking your own progress, it’s really an individual thing.

The Bad News – there are no shortcuts, no one-strike magic bullet fixes. You’ll need to put in many hundreds of hours of listening and practicing alone and playing with others in small groups and in big sessions.

The Good News – there are no shortcuts, no one-strike magic bullet fixes. You’ll need to put in many hundreds of hours of listening and practicing alone and playing with others in small groups and in big sessions.

And when you’re done, you’ll have learned so much about yourself and the music. Both worthy goals, don’t you think?

Irish traditional music is deceptively simple. Yes, the melodies aren’t that complex and, no, the whistle isn’t a physically demanding instrument. But to play it in a manner acceptable to the members of the tradition, you have to master a fair amount of technical nuance and stylistic subtlety that goes deeper than just tooting out the notes in time. It’s a commitment, for sure, like any other endeavor.

Learning music is like learning a spoken language. You memorize the basic syntax and vocabulary, then you have to immerse yourself among native speakers in everyday environments. You might end up occasionally getting on the wrong bus or being mis-directed to the lavatory facility of the opposite gender, but you’ll learn eventually what sounds “right” in what context and how to make those sounds.

One day — literally, one fine day when you least expect it— you’ll hear yourself and realize you can play Irish traditional music on the tinwhistle really well – just the way you like to hear it.

Six things I’ve found helpful in breaking out of being a Beginning Whistle Player:

  1. Decide to play the instrument the absolute best you can. Commit yourself to making the tinwhistle sound as good as any other instrument you’ve ever heard. NO excuses. No “well, this isn’t a complex instrument so I don’t have to be in tune. . . or have a clear sound. . . or use correct ornamentation.” Think like that, and you’re doomed to mediocrity. Learn every single type of ornament possible, even if you later decide not to use them. See if you can play into the third octave — just because it’s there. Dream that you are standing in the middle of the UN General Assembly and the fate of world peace hangs on your ability to play “Si Bheag Si Mhor” so beautifully that every delegate will weep and vote to suspend all war for all time. LOVE THIS INSTRUMENT WITH A COMPLETE AND TOTAL PASSION. It is your voice, your soul, your communication with the universe. Any less, and you’ll always be a beginner.

  2. Decide specifically what (or who) you want to sound like — be they whistle player, flautist, fiddler, piper, accordionist, whatever. Usually when starting out you’ll hear a player or two whose playing really excites you. Imitate them slavishly, try and play tunes exactly the way they’ve recorded them, copy every single variation and idiosyncrasy, become a veritable and unapologetic Musical Clone. Then – with all that floating in your brain – ignore it and do your own thing (see #6). Imitation isn’t just the sincerest form of flattery, it’s the best way to truly ingest fundamentals of style and technique and learn how the music works. . . while acquiring the perspective to eventually create your own style.

  3. Be omnivorous and voracious. Read every Irish music book, magazine and tutor you encounter, listen to every Irish traditional music recording you can beg, borrow or download. I see people on the forum asking “Which tutor should I start with?” Answer: ALL OF THEM!!! Each was written from a unique perspective of an author who had a unique set of learning and performing experiences and very likely represents a unique niche along the big wide Irish Trad Style Spectrum you need to become familiar with in its entirety. Tutors are also written at different times and places and for different publishing/commercial purposes, so don’t deprive yourself of any potential knowledge contained in what might seem an out-dated or limited-scope tutorial. Remember, the greatest players of Irish music didn’t necessarily learn from other great players. . . they took in all they could and added their own individuality to create genius.

  4. Get small and tight. Play frequently with one or two people at your level who are also interested in improving and exploring the tradition in depth. Mass sessions are good for getting new tunes, but you need the intimacy of a small group you can analyze material with. I mean, really analyze: listening to recordings in detail, discussing obscure technical details, comparing different tune versions.

  5. Hang with older players. Even ones who don’t at first glance seem too smooth or accomplished. It’s tempting in our celebrity-saturated culture to focus on the most popular players, the most virtuosic players, the players who dominate the festival and concert circuit and who the media brings to our attention. And certainly, they’re worth listening to. But I can only say that some of the best things I learned starting out, I learned from players who were not well known or virtuosic. They maybe just had some one small thing in their style or repertoire that appealed to me and which I absorbed and may possibly even now be unconsciously passing along to somebody else. I guess that’s the way the traditition stays alive.

  6. Learn how to make variations. Variation is a major element of a melodic-based music like Irish trad. Yes, you need to learn what the “standard” way of playing a tune is. . . then learn how to vary it within the tradition’s boundaries. Variation in Irish music is learning how to get really deep in the tune so that you can keep bringing out new facets that make the tune seem interesting. Variation is what makes you a unique player and enhances your ability to grow because you learn how to manipulate the structure of the tune. Variation isn’t improvisation, though some good variations can happen spontaneously. Sometimes a variation comes to you as a mistake that you correct and refine till it works. In fact, you can mark your progress as a player by the easier it becomes for you to make a variation as you play a tune, say, at a session.

Looking back on my first couple years of playing Irish music on the whistle, these are the things I now see made a big difference in my development. I sincerely hope they prove of some benefit to you. However, I can only speak for me. I can only tell you what I did to end up playing the tinwhistle the way I do. Someone else may have other ideas, so laissez les bons temps rouler.

Best wishes,

L.E. McCullough

I was raised in Ireland and exposed to this music since birth. I can tell you that the modern fixation with ornamentation didn’t always exist. Getting the swing of the music is more important. Maybe I have a case of sour grapes, since I don’t ornament much myself. My advice would be to enjoy what you do and not worry about “progress”. Play for the love of the music.

Thank you…finally somebody who seems to think that playing the song is as important (if not more important) than how you onament the song. Ornamentation has reached the point where they may as well write it into the tablature. Cripes, it was originally a way to give a song some personal character, not a mandatory piece of the music. A way of making the song your own, if you will. I know some people really like ornamentation, and some fell it is an intregal part of the music, but really…in most cases the song wasn’t written or composed with it, some players just added it for a bit of character. I guess I’m just tired of hearing songs with so many “BLIPS” or “BLOOPS” in them that the melody is lost.

wndr wht s mssng frm ths sntnc?


I wonder what is missing from this sentence?

Oh, the first sentence had no vowels. It was difficult to read, difficult to comprehend, didn’t communicate what the writer intended. Most of us would dismiss it as a jumble of gibberish, especially if someone tried speaking it to us minus the vowels.

In Irish traditional music, ornaments are like vowels. Ornaments are an essential part of Irish traditional music. They’re not an idiosyncrasy or aberration or some means of showing off. They’re part of the music’s basic building blocks, and for at least two centuries master Irish musicians have been using them to construct and interpret traditional melodies.

I was fortunate to study and learn from a few of those master musicians (including Micho Russell, whose unique style is too often bandied about as a tattered battle flag for under-achievement). The first thing I learned was how to properly execute basic ornaments and how to fit them into the embellishment of the melody. I didn’t question my teachers’ use of ornaments any more than I would have taken issue with the use of vowels in the alphabet of a language I was learning.

When I started playing the music, ornaments didn’t come naturally – i.e., I wasn’t able to do them at all. But I just kept playing, learning one tune after another until one day (after a year) – boom! everything fell into place, and I was able to play in a manner approved by bonafide members of the tradition. Don’t be discouraged! It WILL happen!

I don’t understand why some people are frightened or scornful of ornamentation. Being able to use ornaments will make you a more versatile, more accomplished player and a player in step with the tradition. It’s really that simple.

If you’re just starting to play Irish traditional music, I encourage you to learn how to play ornaments and feel comfortable using them. Yes, it’s a challenge, but it’s a significant element of the musical language you’re learning, so why not learn that language to the best of your ability? If you were learning a new spoken tongue, would you want to be expressive or clumsy? Attuned to conversational nuance and subtlety, or totally oblivious? Able to explore the culture’s richness or kibbitzing from the outside?

Your choice, of course, and there’s no real reason to agonize over it – but you’ll find your interaction with native speakers/musicians much more gratifying if you plunge in all the way.

Best wishes,

L.E. McCullough

I was going to stay out of this one, but oh, what the Hell…

Thank you, L. E.

Good advice for everyone who wants to progress

M