How do you define phrasing in ITM?

Irish Flute
1

I’m trying to improve my listening skills and am actively listening for “phrasing” in ITM. The common definition of phrasing is “adding space” within a tune, almost mimicking human conversation with call and response. However, it seems like people’s definition of phrasing is somewhat subjective. Take a look at this thread from TheSession.org to see a pretty lengthy debate on how opinions differ on the topic: https://thesession.org/discussions/27209

This topic briefly came up in a previous thread of mine where @Moof added some good insight, but I’ve got some more questions on the topic.

  • Are there any good videos/recordings that someone could recommend me of tunes played “with” and “without” phrasing? I feel like hearing a side by side example would be the most informative, but I’m struggling to find videos on the topic.


  • Is phrasing tied exclusively to a call-response pattern in tunes? Do phrases generally come in pairs?


  • What is the relationship between phrasing and taking breaths on flute? When you’re “phrasing” on the flute but don’t need to take a breath, I’m assuming it’s still important to pause for the same effect?


  • When people say to learn a tune “phrase-by-phrase”. Do they actually mean phrases in the sense of “phrasing a tune”, or are they just referring to learning the tune in smaller fixed-size segments (e.g. 2-bar segments?)

Thanks!

2

At the risk of stating the obvious, playing the flute requires us to breathe quite frequently. You could try to hide this breathing entirely by learning a technique such as circular breathing, but it ends up being counter productive in this musical genre. In other genres it can sound great, but here it tends to make the tunes sound monotonous and we miss out on the opportunity to use our breath points as an ornament. So, we take breaths that are audible, in the sense that they break up the continuous flow of sound coming from the flute.

The first thing to realize is that this can be turned to our advantage in making the music sound more interesting and in enhancing the rhythm. A breath is actually one of, if not the, most powerful rhythmic ornaments. This means that if you insert it at the right point in the tune it will greatly enhance the rhythm, but at the wrong point it can sound really inappropriate. Breaths taken at the optimum points are often almost unnoticeable because they reinforce the rhythm so well. Where the optimum points are located varies from one type of tune to another, primarily because the rhythmic structure differs. For example, the notes you might choose to miss in a jig are different to those you might choose to miss in a reel.

So, there are legitimate and illegitimate potential breath points that are imposed on you by the rhythmic structure of the tune you are playing, i.e., the tune type constrains your choices. But there are still very many possibilities in terms of where you could legitimately take a breath in any given tune. Usually, many more than you actually need.

If you take breaths at very regular intervals, the phrasing that results will sound a lot more repetitive than if you vary the location and length of time between breathing points. Variation in breathing pattern, and phrasing that results from it, can be used to add a bit of interest when you repeat parts of a tune, again to make the repetition sound more interesting. Or in some cases you can deliberately play certain parts of the tune with the same repetitive pattern in order to emphasize them. If you play with regular breath intervals/phrasing and then insert a longer phrase, that longer phrase will be more prominent than if you always varied. There is a lot of scope for imprinting your own personal style or interpretation on a tune this way.

So, a lot of what I just said is pretty straightforward, as a foundation. You can practice trying to play a tune as many different ways as possible, while still following the basic rhythmic rules about which notes to drop. But what you’ll probably find is that some seemingly legitimate places for taking a breath just don’t sound good. This is because there is more to good phrasing than simply rhythm. There is the question of how it interacts with the melodic structure of the tune. Certain sequences of notes are important and shouldn’t be broken. Certain sequences can be broken, but only in certain ways, and that might require a note substitution or switch in order to sound “right”. So there are issues of taste which kind of merge into questions of legitimacy in terms of what is traditional, or traditional for a particular region, etc. This is where listening and trying to soak in the kind of language or accent of the music is important. Some players are particularly creative when coming up with new and interesting phrasing. There are people on this forum who have been immersed in this music for a very long time and who can speak to these later issues much better than I can. Its a rich and interesting area.

So back to some of your specific questions.

On the relationship between phrasing and breaths: you should generally take a breath before you need to. Well before, usually. Taking the breath introduces a phrase boundary. Just make sure its at a good place and try not to be too repetitive about it.

Phrasing it not tied exclusively to the call-response pattern, but the call-response pattern in a tune can certainly influence your phrasing.

When you learn phrase-by-phrase, you can think of it as just learning each phrase as a mini, stand-alone, tune. It makes it much easier to get your finger programmed for the sequence of movements. Then you can start trying to string them together, maybe initially in pairs of phrases, etc.

I hope this helps. I’m sure others here have a lot more to add.

3

This may not be precisely what you are requesting, but here is a selection of different approaches to playing a common jig (The Battering Ram).

In this first one Hatao uses reatively long phrasing with some very long complex phrases
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU2uxfnxAHw

Here, Harry McGowan provides and example with generally shorter but varied phrasing, with some long phrases that are a bit unexpected and add nice drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1HOqz4FcWw

Next we have an example of Kevin Henry using even shorter phrasing , but notice that it still maintains lift and rhythm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhx2UFbrpnk

Here Desi Wilkinson takes a slightly different and varied phrasing approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdx8qYRikA

Here are some more examples:

Matt Molloy and Seamus Tansey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1ZE1iicVo8

Fintan Vallely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGNUmASr-M

Here is an example with relatively little variation in breath interval length and phrasing:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/B_2-SF_gRFs

And here is an example of circular breathing (no breath points at all!). Unfortunately, it is on a different tune, but I think you’ll be able to appreciate the effect of no phrasing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekIIn_BY3e0

I suggest you listen carefully to these examples, and others, and try to find both the commonality and the variations in the phrasing, and see how it affects the way the tune sounds to you.
You might observe how the breath points and phrasing are commonly used to add a kind of skip in the stride pattern that makes the tune sound more lively.

You might also notice that despite the incredible skill level demonstrated by Hatao in demonstrating circular breathing, there is definitely something lost musically when it is employed to remove the breath points altogether.

4

Perhaps step away from the breath focused approach for a moment and listen to how fiddleplayers, pipers or concertina players structure their tunes. Look at the musical phrases, the structure and the rhythms. Take it from there.

5

I think this is a good idea. I was debating adding some non-flute versions of the Battering Ram.

For example, in this banjo version you can hear the phrasing even though the banjo player obviously doesn’t need to insert breaks for breathing:

Initially, it can be hard to hear the phrasing on instruments where there aren’t such obvious and explicit phrase boundaries as breath points on wind instruments, but I think once you start hearing the phrase structure it quickly becomes much more obvious.
You may notice in the example above that some phrase boundaries are represented by linking notes that launch into the next phrase without there being an actual gap. You can do this on a flute too, without taking a breath, from phrase to phrase and part to part. It reinforces momentum.

6

Phenomenal response Paddler. Thanks for putting the effort into compiling these. What I’m taking from this is that in flute playing, we generally take a breath corresponding to our phrasing (because why not?), however, it seems like phrasing is more influenced by the melody. For example, when playing a reel I could technically take a breath anywhere not on the downbeat or upbeat as to not interrupt the rhythm, but there are certain melodic sequences that deserve staying contiguous. Phrasing is about finding these logical melodic strings (which can vary from player to player).

7

This is good, and kind of what brought my attention to phrasing. I’m noticing that a lot of fiddle players talk about phrasing and the importance of it, but you don’t hear the same emphasis of the topic within the flute community. I’m guessing that it’s an implied concept within most flute players due to the fact you need to breath.

8

This is really good. Hearing the “space” within the banjo recording is much more explicit and obvious when you know it’s technically not necessary, but adds to the tune. So i’m concluding that “phrasing” and “breathing” are two separate things but could overlap out of convenience.

9

Yes, the relationship between breathing and phasing is critical for flute players. They are not one and the same thing, but are closely related. Breathing needs to be done at points that make musical sense, both rhythmically and melodically. The rhythmical side of this is easier to grasp, I think, because it is more structured and predictable, in that there are simple rules that you can follow.

The melodic part is more tricky, and requires a more well-developed feeling and understanding of the music. The phrasing structures used by players of non-wind instruments can really help guide you as to the common, melodically sensible, points for taking a breath for a given tune. The reason is that they are placing the space there for a musical reason. They don’t need to insert space or separation at those points in order to breath. Listening to other flute players can help guide you too, but you have to make sure that the person you are listening to is not just inserting a breath because they ran out of air. I think this is the wisdom in Mr Gumby’s response above.

Running out of air is, of course, the fundamental rule that can never be violated for flute players, without disastrous impact on the tune. So you want to manage your air reserves carefully and conservatively, and take opportunities for breathing, such as phrase boundaries, early, when they present themselves. These can either be commonly used phrase boundaries that you might hear non-wind instrument players using, or you can split certain existing phrases in musically sensible ways. Listening to good flute players is a good way to understand the musical effect of different ways of doing this phrase splitting, and of learning the common patterns or strategies for doing it. Similarly, choosing not to take a breath at a phrase boundary, and instead inserting linking notes to run on into the next phrase is a good way to build drive and momentum into your playing.

Different players have different constraints and different musical tastes, which combine to shape that players style. As a flute player you need to develop your own style such that it works for your own constraints and expresses the music in the way you want to be heard … if you know yet. There isn’t just a single right way of playing each particular tune, there is quite a rich space of options available, which makes it a pleasure to listen to a variety of different players with their own different approaches. It is often quite interesting and informative to listen to someone who employs a new approach, even if its not the way you are used to hearing the tune.

10

Perhaps have a read:

Rhythm and structure in Irish traditional dance music, pt 1

11

One of the gems in that article is the discussion of how phrase boundaries often don’t align with bar boundaries. For example, in a jig the phrase often starts on the note before the bar and ends before the end of the bar, so the next phrase can start early (for want of a better term).

You are probably already familiar with the concept of pick up or lead in notes at the start of a tune, but it applies to phrasing within a tune too. In fact, when noted at the start of a tune, in written notation, you can often take it as a hint about how to establish phrasing.

You can clearly hear this phrase and bar boundary misalignment in the Battering Ram examples I posted earlier. But notice that not every phrase starts ahead of the bar.
Again, this choice offers an opportunity for variation, allowing you to add lift and interest without being too repetitive about it.

I think it highlights an interesting relationship between rhythm and lift. Starting a phrase ahead of the bar seems to impart that merry, skip in the step, kind of emotional impact, while still adhering to the fundamental rhythm.

12

I was going to quibble about the ‘linking notes’ mentioned in an earlier post, but you covered it. To my ear they are usually the start of the phrase. If a tune is notated with nothing before the first bar line I straight away look at the ends of the parts to see if the melodic phrases are ending before the last note of the bar. Not that it can’t be missed out for a breath sometimes.

One thing I picked up (probably on this board) when I was starting was that breathing after a strong note is a common tactic. You can hear it in some renderings of that jig above (sorry I should have made a note of who was doing it clearly). The breath tends to emphasise the previous note so if it’s a strong note within the phrase you can get a breath in without needing to use the ends of a phrase. .

13

There’s quite a lot to take in from that article :slight_smile: I thought the comment on varying phrases lengths was very insightful as to not make a tune monotonous. Thank you for sharing.

14

I’ve heard several top players mention that when they take such a breath after a strong note that ends a phrase, they do not ornament that particular note. In fact, I’ve heard people state this almost as a hard rule. For example, if you might normally have inserted a cut at the beginning of the note (or in the case of Mary Bergin’s whistle tutorials, tongued that strong note for rhythmic emphasis), when it falls right before a breath, it typically gets a bit of extra air pressure (perhaps to compensate for being shortened), but no other articulation.

Its a subtle difference, but it does tend to sound better and more authentic to do it this way. I’m not really sure why this is, but, to my mind, it seems to make sense on several fronts. If you are about to take a breath, you may as well exhale a bit more stale air before hand, and this extra lift in volume can compensate for shortening the note to buy you more time to get the breath in before starting the next phrase. And if a note is getting a bit of extra power from the breath like this it might be over doing it to add another ornament on top of that. And maybe it might detract from, or obfuscate, the start of the next phrase, which is in close proximity, may be more important in terms of rhythm.

These are just a few thoughts that crossed my mind. I’d be interested to learn more about the rationale for this kind of thing.

15

An interesting - but time consuming - exercise might be to go through each of those recordings with a score (probably needing a hard copy for each) marking each breath each time through.

Both Kevin Henry and Fintan Vallely are taking a breath within what I think many would regard as a musical phrase (I think it may be the same place but I didn’t go back to check).

Matt Molloy and Seamus Tansey are mainly breathing in the same places when they start but it’s less pronounced when the variations get bigger later on.

16

I was just thinking about pick-up/leading notes, when paddler wrote:

You are probably already familiar with the concept of pick up or lead in notes at the start of a tune, but it applies to phrasing within a tune too. In fact, when noted at the start of a tune, in written notation, you can often take it as a hint about how to establish phrasing.

Does the phrase start with the pick-up, or with the strong beat after the pick-up?
I’m more with the latter concept, i.e. the pick-up isn’t the phrase start, rather it leads rhythmically into the start of the phrase. This is notable in a couple of situations:
(1) Call-and-response situations, where the phrases are kind of obvious,
(2) A lot of tunes use pick-up notes even between A-A or A-B transitions, making Irish music phrases roll into each other so the tunes feel circular.

Tunes feel really robotic if you always take a breath at the end of the A or B parts.

The pick-up note is kind of genre-defining. Irish jigs have this feel of ba-DUMP-it-ty, ba DUMP-it-ty, even when the “ba” note is not written in the notation.

There are a couple of tunes where the melody line from one part repeats in such a way that it obfuscates the phrase end. I’m thinking of “Rolling Wave (Humours of Trim)”, and my new favorite tune, “Princes Feather”.

17

I’m not sure about that, though it depends how you conceptualise it. I find it hard to see how you could put pickup notes into a separate phrase from what follows, as their whole purpose is to lead into it; sometimes they allow you to put more stress on the first ‘true’ note, and if you paused the phrasing between them you’d lose all that impetus. But I might be misunderstanding what you mean.

Hornpipes are interesting from the point of view of pickups. Whereas they’re optional in some tunes, they’re very often an integral part of a hornpipe.

18

I just want to add singers. Some of the most artful and expressive phrasing comes from singers. And they have to breath. It helps to listen to them closely.

19

I think there has been more focus on breathing in the discussion than there was in the OP.

If I am working on a new tune I generally think about the phrasing before I think much about the breathing. I often find recordings by experienced players who don’t have to breath into their instruments are a good guide to the ‘shape’ of a tune. I sometimes come across a tune where it is not clear to me where the melodic or rhythmic cadences are. If really stuck I sometimes take a huge breath and (ideally) play a whole part and a bar into the repeat or the next part just to hear it as one. Maybe those tunes are the ones with more options over the phrasing.

20

@david_h after a bit of active listening since my original post, I agree! Phrasing is a standalone concept that may be implemented through the use of strategic breaths, however, note lengths and weights (and probably other techniques) can also be used. Further, breaths can be taken within phrases and not be disruptive if done correctly. Disclaimer, these are purely my thoughts/opinions :slight_smile:

One other thing I’ve been thinking of recently… how subjective is the concept of phrasing to the listener? Assuming two experienced players are listening to the same recording and were given a pencil to mark phrases within a transcript, could each listener interpret the phrases differently and still be correct? Given that different players go on to phrase tunes differently, I wonder how much of that is due to different original interpretation or if it’s simply self induced re-phrasing because they think it sounds better one way?… Very interesting stuff and probably best to not over think it.