New and a breath question

Hey, I’m new here. I’ve just got my first whistle (a mellow dog (d), thank you jerry :smiley: ), and I’ve been watching and practicing ryan duns’s lessons, along with reading brother steve’s articles. I come from a classical flute background, and one thing that’s really driving me batty is breathing. In his videos, it seems like Ryan Duns always breaths in the same place, always at the end of a “phrase”, which is what I’ve been doing, and which is what is instinctive to me from my classical flute background. I’ve tried a few times to breath instead in other spots, and I’m having trouble. a), it seems like it takes me much longer to take a breath in an “uninstinctive spot”, and thus I’m “holding up the music” (mind I’m not trying to play with anyone yet, I’ve only been at it a few days) b) It’s really hard to remember to do and throws me really off c) I can’t find a spot where it sounds good/ok to me, except inbetween phrases.

I’m not really hearing the breathing on the audio clip brother steve put with his article on breathing.

I really want to learn to play tin whistle properly in the ITM style, and not a poor imitation. I realize I’m just starting out, but do you have any advice/help/resources I can listen to that might be helpful for getting me on the right path from the begining, and not having to try to unlearn something down the road, which is what I feel like will end up happening if I keep learning from Ryan duns and breathing how I’m breathing and not working on it.

Thanks :smiley:

I hear you with the breathing issue – I had the same problem for a very long time, and not attending to it led to habits that were hard to break when it finally came time to fix my breathing issues. I ended up having to abandon the tunes I had learned with breathing only at phrase breaks, and just go learn new tunes where I had the breathing right from the beginning. (I’m finally going back now to repair the old tunes).

First and most important – go buy some recordings of good Irish whistle players, and listen to them obsessively. Use them as background music whenever the people around you will tolerate it. Also take some time quietly alone, and really listen hard to what they’re doing with their breathing. I’m a very analytical person, so I found that it helped me to search up sheet music for tunes, and follow along with the recording, circling the notes that got dropped for breaths. But what you need, first of all, is to develop a clear imprint in your mental ear of how Irish flute/whistle music shapes its phrasing around the breathing pauses, turning a necessity into an expressive opportunity.

Now I’m no expert Irish whistle player, but I am an analytical personality who has been immersing myself in this very question over the last year of my playing history, and the following are some things I’ve personally observed. I’d be really grateful if more experienced players would correct me where I am misled, as I try to share what I have learned.

First of all, it’s not that the ends of phrases are bad places to pause for a breath (real players do it all the time!) – it’s just that it makes the music sound very predictable to breathe only there. In contrast, there’s a sense of flow that comes from running the music from one phrase into the next, which is why so many tunes have variations at the end of each part, so that the end of one section has the possibility of flowing smoothly into the next (if you don’t pause for a breath there, that is).

The most common way to preserve that sense of flow is to not take a breath in that predictable place, but to play through the end of the phrase, on through the optional pick up notes that lead into the next phrase, and then hit downbeat of the first measure of that next phrase – and then quickly snatch a breath, dropping an off-beat note. I can’t quite figure out why it’s so, but making first beat of the next tune-phrase into the final note of your breath-phrase somehow gives extra pop to that first/last note, which punctuates the sense of gathering momentum that you preserved by playing through the phrase break. The strength of that first/last note seems to serve as a momentum-preserving jumping off-poing for a little leap ahead in the tune, during which you steal the chance for a breath.

Of course, in some places the note folliowing that first/last note isn’t expendable, and you’ll instead want to drop the off-beat note following one of the subsequent strong beats. I have found that for me, it’s a matter of experimenting around, playing with different breath/phrasing options, and listening for ones that make musical sense to me. More experienced players I’ve talked to say that they can hear these phrasing options in their heads and their fingers and breath just do what they need to in order to make it sound right, but that was not the case for me when I started out. At first I had to play the options out loud so I could evaluate them, and then laboriously teach them to my ballistic guidance system – but I am noticing that now, with more experience, I find myself doing it occasionally with no conscious intervention.

In concrete terms, this means that you’re generally going to be dropping note 2 of a 3-note grouping in jigs, and dropping note 2 or 4 of a 4-note grouping in reels and hornpipes. But the key is figuring out how to make your breath-phrases speak musically, almost weaving a commentary around the predictable phrasing possibilities that come built-in to the tune.

Thanks. I know I need to start listening to good Irish whistleing, I just don’t have the money for any new music at the moment, and the library seems to have a dearth of good irish traditional music, and no good irish traditional whistleing. I have a friend/aquantence who plays irish traditional music, and I’m hoping he might have some CD’s I can borrow, and I’m looking for other opportunities to listen for free/within my almost non-existant budget. When I go ceili dancing, I try to spend some time listening to the whistlers, maybe I’ll do that more.

I’ll keep trying to breath in different places and see what sounds best (though with my main musical reference, nothing sounds as “good” as at the ends of phrases, even though I know it’s not appropriate stylistically.), and at least it might help me not get too stuck in always breathing in the same place. we’ll see.

Thank you for your advice.

I know how that can be – when I first started playing whistle I was dirt-poor and had to scrimp and squeeze my budget for every cheapie whistle. For a while I had a single Mary Bergin CD I’d bought, and a copy of the one-disk version of the Cathal McConnel tutorial which I had pirated from the library. I played those CDs just about to death. Go forth and find what you can – note that Irish flute is as applicable as whistle music, for learning about breathing, at least. Also, check your PMs.

My playing took a huge leap forward in quality once I re-achieved minimal solvency and was able to start acquiring more whistle and flute music to listen to. That was much more conducive to better whistling than WhOA ever was.

Here’s someplace to listen free:

whistle:
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/mary-bergin
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/sean-ryan

flute:
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/matt-molloy
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/seamus-tansey
http://www.deezer.com/en/#music/kevin-crawford

thank you so much. (I have the feeling those are going to get played to death :smiley: )

I’ve found quite a bit of music on grooveshark, but it’s hard to find the “alone” time to give a close listen. I tend to download favorite numbers as singles for a dollar or less at amazon (allowing myself one or two every pay period).

I’m glad you are analytical, squidgirl, because I truly benefit from the level of detailed description in your posts! Needless to say, I’m having trouble with breathing too.

For many years I taught Irish flute workshops and you have pinpointed one of the biggest issues that attendees coming from a “classical” background often had.

Yes in classical/baroque music there are usually logical places to take a breath. When confronted by, say, a Bach piece which has a long unbroken string of sixteenth notes the players will take a hugh breath beforehand to get through it.

That doesn’t work with Irish dance music! Nearly all Irish dance music (reels and jigs) is nothing but a long unbroken string of sixteenth notes! Hour after hour. (Well they would be sixteenth notes if Irish tunes were written following usual orchestral practices…but in Irish practice they’re written as eighthnotes.)

So the Irish whistle/flute player must find his own breathing spots. You must become your own arranger.

This is possible because, unlike when reading a Bach piece, in Irish music you’re not required to, indeed not expected to, play all those notes.

Irish jigs and reels, if played in the traditional manner, are nothing but a long uninterrupted string of eighthnotes, eight per bar in reels and six per bar in jigs. To create a breathing spot you leave out one of these.


So in a bar of jig GGG GAB can become G’G GAB or GGG G’B or whatever you need in order to take a breath.

Now, there are two somewhat different approaches to creating these breathing spots that different players take. Some players make the breathing spots, in effect, part of their arrangement of the tune, breathing in the same spots on each repeat. When a fiddler etc learns a tune from one of these players he may be at a loss to know what note to put into this gap.

Other players (I am one of them) tend to switch the breathing spots around on the various repititions, so that these moving spots become part of the variation that the tune has, along with switching some of the notes and switching the ornament choices etc.

Indeed good Irish fluteplayers turn the necessity of breathing into an asset, their tasty choices of breathing spots giving great lift to the music. Listen to old recordings of Michael Tubridy: he was great at this.

I’m not sure I have anything to add. I just want to offer camaraderie :slight_smile:

I’m also a beginner and am struggling with the same issue. My other instrument is mouth-blown bagpipes, which use a completely different breathing technique, so I have the ability to make it through a 4 or 8 bar phrase, depending on my tempo and nerves. In fact, that’s how I breathe when I’m not thinking about it and have “surprised” myself when I took a huge gasp of air and the whistle stopped (i.e I totally lost the rhythm). I find that I still play tunes as four parts… A [huge gasp] A [huge gasp] B [huge gasp] B… yuck!

many of us on these forums breath…

it can be done

after much practice you too will be able to breathe

stay off the pipe forum…they cheat :really:

I’m curious if there are any guidlines on how far one can go with this process? If my asthmatic ol’ grandmother decided to play the whistle, would she be able to get away with a breath every bar?

I tend to overanalyze as well and am curious of it would good practice to plan a breath in every bar, even if I don’t take it… sort of overcompensate for my current tendancies in the search for a happy middle.

Actually, I need to get into the practice of sipping air… I couldn’t fit my current gasps into a single eight note.

sipping is good…

also know, in some circles, as the huff and puff method

I was a smoker for many years, plus I play rather slowly (please forgive my Irish dance dirges), so I only can only get about 2-4 bars on a single breath. I must confess that I’m currently suffering a relapse with the smoking (bad squid!), and it’s gone down to 2 bars max. So I can attest that it is possible to breathe that often, if one gets creative. But when you’re takin such frequent breaths, you need to be creative & critical about breathing spots, or the music can sound patchy or monotonous. I find that when I break it up into longer chunks, with more odd groupings of bars, it sounds more organic.

I tend to overanalyze as well and am curious of it would good practice to plan a breath in every bar, even if I don’t take it… sort of overcompensate for my current tendancies in the search for a happy middle.

I think the most important and liberating thing for me was to learn to breathe in different places on different times through. You learn to think on your feet, and begin to see the tune as a fluid, changeable thing.

Easy to find breathing places in jigs (I don’t really play many reels yet, so I don’t want to venture there):

  • Substitute out rolls for note-breath-note, e.g. ~F3 => FzF
  • Drop note 2 when you have a 3-note grouping which begins and ends on the same note: e.g. FEF => FzF
    (though sometimes when the center note is a jump up to a higher note, that high note is essential to make the melody work)
    There are plenty of other places that can work wonderfully, but I find that I need to test-drive them in order to hear whether they work or not.

While acknowledging that I am ever the loyal Catherine McEvoy fangirl, I’d recommend her playing as an excellent example of how breathing can be a playful and ornamental asset to the music.

This is indeed a tricky part of ITM, it seems. There’s lots of good advice in these responses.
As another flutist/whistler trained in some classical flute, I agree it’s hard to learn to leave notes out, but it’s very necessary. Other than shortening a long roll or playing less than the whole time of an extended note, such as a dotted note, it’s the only way to breath without interrupting the rhythm of a tune. For the most part (dirge speed or not :slight_smile: this is dance music, and the rhythm is more important than playing all the notes in a melody. Repeated notes especially can be left out. Also, leaving the same note out in each repeat of a phrase sounds very sing-songy, so it’s good to find various places to leave a note out and breath and vary it each time. If you, like many trained flutists, write out tunes (forgive the “dots” readers, please C&F), you can find possible notes to leave out and put them in parentheses to remind yourself what you might leave out if needed. It seems like a zen-like aspect of Irish flute/whistle–and like other great players in other traditions, it’s knowing when and what notes NOT to play that can make the feel of the music wonderful and distinguish great playing from okay playing, imho.
Best,
Jaydoc

I’ll keep working on dropping a note to breath. It’s soooo hard, I am used to thinking of the melody as a string on notes and not… like a river sort of, that keeps playing even when I stop, and so I can stop, take a breath, and come back in later, instead of play stop breath restart like in classical music. I guess I’m used to paying attention to the melody and not the rhythm. Ha. I know I emphasize the melody and not the rhythm with flute, that’s why I hate playing with other people, my concept of rhythm is entirely inventive on the flute. (not so bad on singing… I think.)

I get all confused and thrown off trying to skip a note to breath. Maybe I need to play even slower to work on it… and learn to pay more attention to the rhythm than melody. Thank you for the suggustions of people to listen to who are really good at breathing while flute and whistle playing (and everything else too)

ETA: So I was just practicing playing WITH ryan dun on his video, trying to breath in different spots, and skipping a note for breathing in different spots (mostly repeated notes for now, as the peices I’m working on have a ton of them, and it’s an easier to see place to skip the note). Anyways when I play it by myself at a slow speed (the only speed I can remember to breath in “weird” places skipping a note), I breath then go on to the next note. Playing with Ryan I’m finding that actually when I do that, I’m still not keeping the melody, because I’m having to breath, wait wait play. Any advice for helping keep that rhythm going in my head when I’m not playing anything to breath? Maybe I just need to learn the tune better. I can hear it in my ear, but my mental rhythm isn’t that accurate or precise. It’s kind of… wishy washy I guess.

I’d like to know more about sipping, viz. how it is accomplished.

You’re on the right track for sure!

Because unlike a classical/baroque piece, an Irish jig or reel is not a fixed set of notes.

I like to borrow the “notional-functional” concept from linguistics: in our mind we have an idea of what notion we want to convey to the other person, and our language brain generates a specific string of words, guided by the principles of grammar etc, which conveys this notion. But the same notion could be conveyed equally well by the use of any of several thousand other specific strings of words. Let’s say the notion is about you and the person you’re with going to the store. You could say “lets go to the store” or “how 'bout a trip to the store?” or “would you like to go to the store?” or thousands of others.

Irish jigs and reels are exactly like that. The exact notes selected don’t matter at all, as long as they convey the intention, and follow the grammatical rules. The intention in this case is a certain traditional dance rythm/idiom and a certain tonality/scale structure/chord implication.

For example, take The Kesh Jig. First, it has to have the feel of the jig idiom. And it’s in a “gap scale” which has no C’s or F’s, no 4th or 6th, in other words is pentatonic ( and to boot the exact scale that Amazing Grace is in).

The “notion” of the start is parking on G for the first beat and then going up the scale GAB, then in the second bar parking on A and then going up the scale ABd (remember this scale has no C).
Well, that first beat of G can be one long dotted quarternote (you can do a glide up to make it interesting) or you can play a quarternote and take an eighthnote breath after it, or you can hit an eighthnote G, take a breath, and then hit the last eighthnote, or you can play a long roll G (cut) G (pat) G, or you can play GEG, or GAG, or GDG, or you can switch the first eighthnote to a different note and play AGG or DGG… there are probably hundreds of different things you could do do that first beat of that first bar. And the cool thing is to do something different every time.
It’s what Irish music is all about.

Oh I forgot… here’s a little video I did on Youtube showing various things which can be done at the start of the jig Sean Bui.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyj5LMH6aOI

But which of these is “the real tune”? All of them! The point is, there’s no such thing as “the real tune”, that is, one specific string of notes which is the tune, all others not being the tune. This idea is alien to tradtional Irish music. Any string of notes which a traditional player generates, which fulfills the notion of the tune, is just as much “the real tune” as any other.

On the other hand Irish traditional music has a social aspect: gathering and playing together in sessions. Each session has its own versions of all the tunes that that particular session plays, and you’ll have to record your local session to learn them. The chance of a version you happen to find in print somewhere matching the version played in that particular session is virtually nil. But even at a session the traditional players aren’t playing the tune the same way: each player is playing each phrase in whatever manner pops into his head at the moment. But it all kind of works. It’s not, strictly speaking, “unison” playing, or “homophonic” music to use the learned expression. I’ve heard it described as “heterophonic” music by one music professor.

Wow, I have soooo much to learn!!

wow, that video was interesting, useful, and entirely overwhelming.

I like the idea of it being like trying to get your point across, it makes a lot of sense. (to my brain, we’ll see how it translates to my body, I’m sure it will still take a ton of work. particularly to identify what IS the “point” of the tune, or rather, what makes the tune that tune, and was is exchangeable/interchangeable/etc. Once I can do that, maybe I can start teaching my body to do it…)

what I realized today is that I think I need to learn a reel or jig or two to practice on. The first two tunes I learned are from lesson one and lesson two of ryan dun’s course (dawning of the day and egan’s polka). Except… they are an air and a polka! I’ve been mostly listening to and getting more familiar with jigs and reels, and that’s always what I dance to at ceili dancing (I’m pretty new). (we did one hornpipe one week, but I’m really not familiar with them, and was trying too hard to figure out the step to listen to the music.) I think I’d have a lot more success, or at least a slightly easier time learning to play the rhythm instead of the notes if I start with something I know the rhythm of better…