greenlinnet

I dunno…

I haven’t seen anyone holding a gun to ANY artists head saying “You’ll sign with Green Linnet forever or else!” When they signed, each band that is with GL now must have thought there were some pretty big benefits. That was their choice to venture down the commercial road after all. Anyway, there are TONS of recording labels world-wide and if all the bands/musician needs is exposure and a viable outlet to retail their wares I can hardly think that Green Linnet is the end all, be all of the Celtic music industry.

After all, it IS an industry filled with good and bad business ethics. so when the contracts are over and the litigations settle in the dust, the artists will be free to choose for themselves what they see as the best way to move on from here.

I can promise you this - Amar isn’t going to single handedly bankrupt anyone - artist, label or otherwise. :laughing: If he finds a venue to purchase inexpensive CDs of music from artists he likes, that’s perfectly fine for him to do and none of us has a right to bash him for his choice. You can of course always choose not to yourself and even post your own reasonings if you feel you need to. Comparisons to buying his stolen car are silly at best - even though the intent of the simile is clear.

I think it’s best to reserve judgement ourselves until the courts have worked on it a bit more. All this does for me is take the focus off the musicians and their music anyway.

So let me get this straight: Green Linnet and the artists signed contracts under which Green Linnet would pay them royalties or whatever, now you are saying it’s okay for Green Linnet not to honor that contract and pay, because no one forced the artists to sign with Green Linnet and because there must have been “some pretty big benefits” to the artists (you mean, beside getting their share of the money from the sale of their music)?

I think it’s a great comfort to anyone, after they’ve been screwed and cheated out of the fruits of their labor, to remind themselves that it’s an “industry filled with good and bad business ethics” and that they are free to choose the best way to move on from here. Bah, these mean-spirited and litigious artists!

I’ll say.

Nope. Once again Bloomie you’re not seeing the point here. If you play music and you want to “make it big” the best way for most to do so is to sign with a major label. I’m not one for seeing anyone get screwed by underhanded businesses or people, but it happens daily in this wonderful country of ours (and all over the world). It’s happened to me more than once - just as I assume it has likely even happened to you. I don’t like it, and I’ll guess you don’t either. That’s not what this is about.

The artists didn’t know anything about the way this current situation would end up or they wouldn’t have signed in the first place. Yet, unless they are completely blind to the industry and also completely unaware that this sort of thing has happened for hundreds of years, they should be aware of the possible risks associated with signing.

One never wishes to be screwed, but there are always people ready to oblige nevertheless. I have to imagine that when GL opened its doors for the first time, they weren’t heart set out on de-frauding as many Itrad artists as they could find. Bad business practice is a curse suffered by many not just in the recording industry. Unfortunately you can’t always tell before you sign what the future holds…

True enough. I don’t see a point in what you are saying.

Dar Abbey (Bloomie):
I have a friend who’s taking a jet airplane to a large city to protest against global warming. Should I point out the dichotomy?, or just let him make his own decisions and hope he won’t start examining everything I do?

Signed,
Drawn to OT :smiley:

edited to add smiley face in case it comes over as too serious. Seriously.

Now, the lawsuit and whatnot issue is interesting.

Is Green Linnet being sued in criminal or civil court? If it’s in civil court, it’s hard to make the “innocent until proven guilty” argument since that’s not what’s at stake. If they’re criminal proceedings, that’s something else.

But the other point is well-taken as well . . . if they’re just charging $4/CD, you could send $8 or $10 to the artist and they’d make more than the usual royalty on the sale.

Would anyone really do that?

Stuart

A couple of thoughts.

Compilations: For me they are a way to search through a number of related artist in a genre for styles I like. A couple of GL’s compilations have lead to my buying multiple CD’s by the artist I’ve discovered. Since the litigation, I’ve usually loocked for CD’s directly from an artist’s site, but then I tended to do that anyway. For example, I first heard lunasa from a compilation. I then bough two of their CD’s from thier sight for myself and another 2 as gifts.

Record Companies VS. Artists. I don’t know what happened between GL and it’s artists. In general I know that there have been record companies that have frauded artists AND there have been artist that have frauded the record companies. The fact that its in litigation means there are two sides, it is my hope they can come up with an equitable settlement to both sides. The record company can get a return on its money spent establishing the label, marketing itself and the artist, establishing and maintaining relations with distributor and retailers. Like wise the artist should get a reasonable return on his work and recieve royalities agreed to.

In recent times, the value of compilations has declined because RealAudio and MP3 samples on internet sites make it so much easier to sample and artist’s production. Even record stores now have listening stations that let one sample most of the records they have for sale. For example, I find I buy from Borders more because they set up these listening stations so I could easily sample a CD before buying. They tend to charge a little more for the CD, but I still save money. Prior to the listening stations, I’d estimate that a third of the records or CD’s I’d buy where listened to once, and never again. I’d then grimace of the waist of money. Prior to listening stations (in store or internet) the only way to sample a number of interesting artists were compilations. I think GL originally contributed greatly to the genre and therefor to regular album sales through these. I don’t think this would excuse them from not paying royalities they agreed to, but the accounting expense of splitting royalties amoung so many artists and groups, with so many different thematic compilations might make compilations cost prohibitive. Today since a lot of this can be done with relative ease using automation, software, etc. it wouldn’t be an issue. If GL lagged behind this technology they would end up with a lot of dissatisfied artists.

Again I am NOT defending anything GL’s has done. I am only saying that there is a difference between criminal fraud and between an initially good business arrangement being over taken by technology or changes in the marketplace. If the later happens both the business and artists are dissatisfied. They may not be able to come to an agreement to share the loss of expected returns without mediation.

Because I don’t know all the facts, I’m glad to hear that the courts are being used to help resolve the problems. I wish the courts weren’t necessary, because both parties will lose addition resources because they need to pay for the cost of mediation. I think both parties are going to be dissatisfied with the final settlement, its just that there will be some balance to their levels of dissatifaction.

Finally, I’d like to say I support the artists in their actions toward GL. I doubt that they will get what they want, but over the long run it will further define better business practices for both sides. It may also return the control of assets (masters, copyrights, publishing rights, etc) to the artist who can then search for a more modern business with the flexibility to better represent them through technological and market changes. Another possiblity would be to create an overwhelming financial incentive for GL to make the changes it needs to accomodate the artists through the same changing environment.

My hope is that both become free to get back to the heart of the business … enjoying music. I also hope that we can honor each other opinions so each of us is free the get back to the heart of this community which is how you …

Ah, so we are helping the artists by helping Green Linnet screw the artists.

Ah, no we’re not helping the artists by helping GL screw them. Or, you’re a very confused person. :smiley:

Good point Stuart. I think it does make a difference. But I think the full phrase is ‘presumed innocent until proven guilty.’ This is not so much an instruction about how we are to think but about how we are to treat a person in public, even though it sounds like a directive about what we are to believe. Obviously the prosecuting lawyers and criminologists won’t be presuming innocence, except to the extent of being cautious in making public statements. You can do this by just saying exactly what you want to say and inserting ‘alleged’ into your statement at every point where you want to make an accusation. The slogan is also misleading in that we are not really expected to presume innocence so much as to refrain from openly presuming guilt.

Yes they would. Some of us have promoted CDs for charity and will do so again. We ourselves pay the full price, even though we could probably get them cheaper. Furthermore, we set what we think is a fair price, even though we could probably set it lower. That said, am I boycotting Green Linnet? Not yet, but I’m more cautious than I used to be. If I could get the CD some other way that would result in money in hand for the artist, I’d do so. But what if the artists lose in court, and not on a technicality?

I think a lot of things are in play here and it is hard to be consistent, cover for everything, and still buy the music. We make a judgment about who we think is telling the truth, on the balance of the probabilities, given the scrappy evidence we have available. Then we act. One could appeal to a reasonable principle to justify just about any policy here.

Just one other thing that isn’t a comment on Stuart’s post but is important here. Once every minor label, ie every independent, openly ripped off every artist on their roster. To be recorded at all, you needed not only to accept an up front payment in lieu of royalties but also to sign over publishing and composing rights to the record company boss. Ever wondered who ‘Malone’ was on all those Bobby Bland records? It was the Duke records boss, Don Robey, who wouldn’t have known an original melody if it jumped up and bit him. The trade off was this. If you had a string of hit records, your appearance fee skyrocketed and you were booked out year round. Now, if your manager and booking agent were honest, you might make some money. None of this is meant to excuse Green Linnet if they are guilty as alleged.

I am the last to deny that I am confused. :wink:

  1. I am not as ready to blame someone who buys a Green Linnet CD, even though they are aware of the lawsuit and the fraud, because a boycott of Green Linnet also (to some extent) hurts the artist.

  2. On the other hand I find it cynical and offensive to somehow condone or downplay the way Green Linnet has been (allegedly) stealing from the artist, simply because Green Linnet may not be the only one or because the artists “have decided to go commercial”.

Note to other confused souls: Paragraph no 1 above refers to the conduct of someone who buys a CD from Green Linnet. Paragraph no 2 above refers to the conduct of Green Linnet. Paragraph no 3 above refers to the quality of certain posts in this thread, and has been deleted.

Actually, it really is “presumed innocent” and the slogan is not misleading in that way. In fact, it is misleading only by inclduing “presumed”. Legally, someone is innocent until he or she has been convicted in a proper court of law, according to proper procedure. Everyone may know that he done it, but moral certainty does not ammount to a legal conviction.

The case against Green Linnet is a civil law suit for an accounting (to force Green Linnet to reveal what they have sold and how much money they got for it over the last years so one can know how much Green Linnet should have paid the Artists), and then for back royalties, and then perhaps for damages.

I’m not trained in Australian or US law. But, to the best of my knowledge, the way people speak, including lawyers, doesn’t conform strictly to your view.

Presumably, if someone is innocent then we should all be prepared to say he or she is innocent. Now the prosecution should, on this view, say things like ‘we’re prosecuting a man we know to be innocent’, ‘he’s innocent, but he’ll be guilty after the case, mark my words.’ So why don’t we talk like that? Isn’t it more in accord with the way we all talk to say that, while a case is sub judice, the accused is neither guilty nor innocent legally (yet)? Perhaps we all just equivocate between a moral and a legal sense of guilt and innocence. In Scottish law we have the ‘not proven’ judgment which is not innocence, but, again, that is, as far as I know, a status you attain only after the case.

Agreed. I think you are right regarding usage, and the equivocation moral and legal guilt. Of course it makes sense to say such things as “I know he’s guilty, but I can’t prove it.” In legal terms, that is where legal consequences attach to the status of being “guilty” (for instance sex-offender registration in the US, or the loss of voting rights, or the revocation of licences and permits etc), there is no sense in which guilt can exist prior to conviction.

I’d put it more simply: a person is guilty if they did the crime, and innocent if they didn’t. (I’m deliberately ignoring the “he did it but the act wasn’t really a crime” cases here). But in common usage, and (I strongly believe) common sense, “guilt” or “innocence” attaches to the deed, not legal usage.

In court, we do our best not to presuppose guilt, hence the “presumption of innocence”. And that’s a good thing - otherwise, why bother with a trial? Just go directly to the sentencing! We all know that the evidence may be dubious, there may be more than one possible explanation for how something happened, that the police or prosecutor may have made an error (or even, sadly, may be lying to get a conviction). And, accordingly, we do our best to balance that.

But in the act of balancing, we, sometimes, let someone who we believe may be “guilty” (in the absolute sense) free - and, legally, “Not Guilty”, a verdict that doesn’t always equal “Innocent”. (Didn’t Scotland, at one time, allow verdicts of “Guilty”, “Not Guilty”, and “Not Proven”?)

Though there are a number of things in our court system that I think could be changed for the better, I agree with the basic premise that it’s better to, sometimes, let a guilty man walk free than to convict the innocent. But I reject with scorn that I should, therefore, refrain from making my own judgement on these matters and retaining my own private opinion on things.

Current day example: Right now the publicity about the Scott Peterson murder trial is impossible to avoid. I don’t know if he murdered his wife (I suspect it, yes, but don’t know how I’d vote if I were chosen for that jury). But - based on the things he has admitted to - I think he’s a first-rate louse.

The ITM world is a small one and these Artist are making a living not a fortune of it.
We all know the artist involved here.
We all know that they are going for some serious money out of pocket to prosecute this case.
We all know that they are not fools and would not be doing this if there were not some merit to it.
The artist have informed us that the compilation of tunes were compiled by Green Linnet and put up for sale without the authorization of the Artist.
The artist have made us privy to some of the proceeding leading up to this law suit such as being told by Green Linnet that they could audit the books only to find that after hiring auditors and showing up at Green Linnet that they were refused access.
It is apparent that Green Linnet is attempting to delay as long as possible the reckoning. For what reason?
In business the one thing you guard closely is your Business reputation and Green Linnet has failed miserably to do so. This only tells me they are short for the business world and the and the Artist who could be selling their CD thru other reputable sources are undercut by Green Linnet selling at below cost to clear out their inventory.
If anyone continues to buy from this company they are only putting money in the pockets of the lawyers hired to fight the artist. So here you have artist who’s talents are being exploited to pay for the battle they wage for royalties they are entitled to.