Open Letter to Dale Wisely

Whistle
1

Dale

You publicly announced that you would re-instate my links after I had apologised to you. I have done so, in a private e-mail, as properly as I could, under the difficult circumstances. Unfortunately, you appear to have renaged on you decision, by now demanding that I agree to not to sue anyone.

I have already explained that I have no intention of suing you. However, the damning and unfair statement about my business remains close to the top of your message board. Azalin has already stated that he deliberately returned to the thread to keep it up there. He has also declared a personal dislike of me, but has not given a reason for this. I see no reason why, under the circumstances that he might not continue to use the board to cause problems for me.

Can you see that it would be unfair to me, to agree not to take action against someone who has deliberately set out to cause me problems that could have serious financial consequences? Personally, I feel that you should also consider taking action against such trouble-makers, as it gives the board a bad name.

My business practices are fair and honest. I charge more in Euros than some charge in dollars, because I buy at a different exchange rate, when buying from the UK and other countries, and this is reflected in my prices. Euro to UK sterling rates, by the way are very favourable for UK residents, and no one in England has ever complained that I am too high. If other dealers have been complained about in the past on this board, then I can only imagine that what they were doing was unfair (like the e-bay transactions you mentioned). My business practices are not unfair, and my prices are geared towards a profit margin of between a standard 35% and 50% of the wholsale prices. I also include shipping in my prices and often free pouches, and other items, like whistles. I frequently send out whistles for nothing, if there has been an error or other mix up.

You can see then, I hope, why I become irate when I am accused of being unfair in my business practice.

I also hope that you can see why I wish to reserve the right to respond accordingly to anyone who maliciously tries to undermine my business. The usual response, when all others have failed (and I did reply to Azalin on the board, but he got worse, not better) is a legal one. It is a standard right of all citizens of most civilised societies. I reserve the right to excercise it, if feasible and when I feel it is warrented.

I believe that you are being unfair in asking me to give up that right. If you don’t want the board to be involved in legal actions, I suggest that you find a way of dumbing the trouble-makers. But please do not ask us to give up our civil rights.

If you still feel that, having agreed to your request to apologise, that I am still not entitled to a re-instatement of my links, then so be it. However, I do feel that such a decision would reflect poorly on you.

Regards

Steve Power

Edited for typos - also sent to Dale as a private e-mail, with a statement that I would be publishing on the board.



[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-09-16 08:14 ]

2

I’ll respond to this at length when I’m NOT late for work. In the meantime, I don’t understand why you would both be an active member of the board AND this angry and offended and threatening to sue people. I mean, would you normally hang out with people you were thinking about suing? Would you expect to be welcome there?

This whole thing would have been avoided if you had simply responded factually to Azalin’s original post and sat back and soaked up the stream of positive comments you got.

Dale

3

It’s not often that I send anything to this forum, but this time I feel that something has to be said.
It is very sad that one person decides to persecute someone else on the board. I feel that it is the right for a business to charge whatever they need to. It is the responsibility of the buyer to ensure that he pays what he thinks is a fair price. In this particular case, the prices are well advertised, and there are no doubts about what you will pay.
That being said, this topic and the one that caused it should be purged from the board, and that a “firm” note sent to the person who initiated the discussion, indicating that this sort of posting is unacceptable and un-necessary.

4

Dale,

I don’t know if you’re trying to protect me, but just don’t worry about it. If he wants his link back and you’re willing to do so, go ahead…

Steve,

You are really getting on my nerves. Yesterday I did call my aunt who works as a lawyer at the government of Canada’s office in Montreal. She did have a look at the main thread, and I gave her a pasted copy of the other thread where you’ve been threatening me. First thing she did is laugh, saying that we were all children, me included. Second thing, she told me that being sued for that might work in other countries (even though she was very skeptical), but in Canada not only will you get your arse kicked, but it would just get worse for you.

For the people who keep on insisting that I change my thread, well, you havent seen me try to ruin a buisness, so leave it there.

Steve, if you keep on threatening to sue me, now you’re talking serious matter to me. I’m not afraid at all about the threat itself, and I welcome you to take any legal action against me, but it’s a matter of principle. My girlfriend’s family lives at 15 minutes from your shop, so we might just end up having a chat in person as I’m around often, being in Canada right now.

[ This Message was edited by: Azalin on 2002-09-16 09:12 ]

5

Azalin,
what was your reason for disliking Steve?

6

I’ve already admitted to being angry about all of this, but I do want to say that I welcome feedback about this matter–posted on this thread or the original thread. I’ll take a look at everything when I get off from work today. I do appreciate the feedback.

I will say that at this time I think Steve & Azalin need to take this into email. I think I’m right.

Dale

[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2002-09-16 09:29 ]

7

Tony,

For some comments he’s made in july, 2001. But there’s a few members I don’t like on this board, as there’s many members who don’t like me. That’s part of life, and I criticize as often people or “entities” I like than the ones I dislike, it just doesnt have anything to do with this.

Dale,

I’m willing to let go, but I can’t let threats go unanswered on that board. I didnt even mention anything about this since yesterday afternoon, and I wake up with another threat message. I will let go again, but I would urge Steve to make his threats come true if he wants, and try to make a judge make me pay for what he thinks is unfair losses for his buisness, but to keep the story in the background, unless he’s gone into some PR campaign.

Steve, if you want my personnal address, I’ll give it to you by email, it will make you save some money on research, since I’ve been moving all around and I’m hard to get a hold on.

8

Uh-oh, Dale is angry. Not a good thing. :slight_smile:

Seriously, not having knowledge of any hidden agendas (or even whether there are any or not), I found nothing damning in Azalin’s original post about the pricing of sets of Generations. IMHO, Steve’s reply complaining about having his business attacked was over the top.

Jens

9

This board used to be so much more civilized than the other internet “hang outs” of mine.


So much for that…

10

This is so frickin stupid.

Steve, if you spend some time looking around the internet you will find that there are negative reviews of all sorts of products and all sorts of sellers ALL OVER THE PLACE. Most websites that sell products offer a forum for users to candidly review products they’ve bought from the site. There are other sites, such as E-Pinions that allow people to post their experiences, good and bad, with certain sellers. That is part of the beauty of the internet - freedom of speech. It works for all of us.

I have been reading the Chiff and Fipple web-site, newsletter and messageboard for five years now - since before the newsletter and the messageboard even existed. One of the great things about this site has been the ability to share experiences with various whistles, makers and resellers - it has helped keep me from getting burned and know that I in turn have helped others to make wise choices as to their whistles. Every once in a while a whistle maker or reseller has popped in to object to what someone has to say - when those objections have been polite, patient, reasonable and understanding the situation has usually worked itself out nicely for all parties involved. When the objection has been rude, overly defensive, unreasonable, litigous, etc, the situation has generally ended disastrously for the maker/reseller.

You have a long history here of advertising your product at every opportunity possible and then taking it very personally whenever anyone makes any sort of negative comment about your website. You consistantly insist that they are attacking you personally, are slandering your website, must remove their posts and have no rigt to post their feelings about your business. They have EVERY right to post whatever they want to about your website just like you have every right to respond however you like. However, when you threaten legal action and insist that their criticism of your business is a personal attack on you, you are only causing trouble for yourself. More than anything else, you make yourself look very foolish and very childish.
If anyone here has anything against you it is only because of how you have acted in the past. You brought that on yourself. It is certainly not as if anyone - Azalin, Peter, Dale, or anyone else - just decided, “Hmm, there’s this new guy named Steve Power and he runs a website called ShannaQuay. I think I’ll just dislike him and/or his business for the heck of it”. No, your behavior on this forum is what caused them to dislike you and your business. Azalin questioned your prices. YOU, not him, turned it into a personal feud. That’s your fault. Az may have had nothing against you in the first place but now, because of your behavior, I am sure he does.
Now if you still have any doubt whether Azalin should be allowed to post criticism of your business on this board think about all the times that whistle makers have responded to negative comments. Have they threatened to sue? No. The best of them have simply apologized for any problems and offered to make things right. For their actions they have garnered much respect. For heavens sake, their are even discussion groups and entire websites devoted to how much certain products, people and stores “suck”. Those sites have rarely been the subject of legal action, and even more rarely has that legal action been successful. You have no case whatsoever, so quit being childish and threatening to sue.
If you are sure your prices are reasonable then present us with a compelling arguement that they are. That will end the whole debate. DO NOT, however, tell people that they can’t criticize you. By doing so you are your worst enemy.

Best,
Chris



[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-16 10:32 ]

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-16 10:40 ]

11

On 2002-09-16 10:19, TelegramSam wrote:
This board used to be so much more civilized than the other internet “hang outs” of mine.


So much for that…

Gee Sam, So far this thread has been positively tame by my standards :laughing:

How’s school going by the way? First year of College is it?

Loren

12

ChrisLaughlin wrote:
…If you are sure your prices are reasonable then present us with a compelling arguement that they are. That will end the whole debate…

Chris,
1)he did.
2)he really doesn’t have to justify how he arrives at a selling price. Nor do the other vendors that he competes with.

13

Dale,
You provide us with a delightful forum and you have to tolerate some abuse for it. I enjoy reading the arguments that often ensue because I always learn about tempering myself from them. My whistling and communication skills and even my attitudes have vastly improved because of this site. I want you to know that your efforts have made a big difference in my life. I didn’t know which would make a bigger difference to you, emailing this message privately or posting it publicly. So I’m doing both.
P.S.
Loren, I read your post after I wrote this one and now I feel silly! I must prefer feeling silly because I feel that way a lot. :laughing:
Lisa

[ This Message was edited by: ysgwd on 2002-09-16 10:45 ]

14

Tony -

  1. A quick look at his site finds a tweaked O"Brian in D for twice what I payed for one while in Ireland 1 year ago - and that is before shipping. That to me is unreasonable.

  2. Steve has every right to sell whatever he likes at whatever prices he likes, but we all have just as much right to a) not buy his products at said prices, or at all; b) state publicly that we feel his prices, attitude, etc are over the top.

Just like you are allowed to state here that you think I am wrong, I am allowed to state that I think you and Steve are wrong. That the fun of freedom of speech :laughing: Get used to it.
Chris

The more you give the more there is.

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-16 10:49 ]

15

My other hangout does a lot worse than this thread. Here is what I know about these type things.

  1. Everyone has to get the last word.
  2. Everyone has to be right.
  3. Everyone looks bad.

Take this into email. Better yet, just drop it. Azalin may be right in claiming that he meant no personal harm in raising the price issue, but certainly he has to be smart enough to know that it would be interpreted that way, given the history. That makes it seem antagonistic. But, Steve chose to take the low road. In a flame war, the best tactic is silence. Especially when there were many others coming to his defense. I don’t think Steve’s business was harmed by the question or the topic as much as it was by his response.

Here is what Dale should do: if both sides agree to drop the whole thing right now, or at least take it off the boards, he should reinstate the link in a week or so, as kind of a cool-down. Steve should let his service and customers do his talking for him. Azalin should be mindful of the dynamics and try to avoid phrasing legitimate questions in pointed ways.

I hope this doesn’t hurt my chances of getting an O’Brainn Feadog at Shanna Quay.

16

Chris… I must have missed something. Where was I wrong?

17

I usually stay out of “controversial” threads, but I thought I’d post my thoughts this time.

I don’t personally know either Azalin or Steve, and have nothing against either of them. I have enjoyed both of their posts in the past and have been reading them for nearly a year. During that time I’ve heard nothing but good things about Steve and Shanna Quay. This hasn’t made me buy anything from there, however–not because I don’t want to, but because I don’t have money to buy whistles very often (with two small children and one on the way, and a husband still in school…)

Seeing someone’s negative comments about Steve’s business isn’t going to make me say “Oh, well, so and so said this, so I won’t ever buy from there.” I think any intelligent person, when buying something from an internet vendor, will check out and compare prices to see where they can get the best deal for their money, as well as service, customer care, etc. I know I always do, on the rare occasions that I buy online.

My point is, Azalin’s comments did absolutely nothing to sway me towards one side or the other. I am perfectly capable of looking up whistles I want for myself and deciding when and where to buy them and how much I want to pay for them. So I think Steve is making a big deal out of absolutely nothing. I doubt very many, if any people on this board would have changed their plans about shopping at Shanna Quay based on one person’s views that the merchandise offered there was “too expensive.”

I do think, however, that responding negatively to criticism does turn people off in a big way. Take, for example, recent posts by a certain Susato maker…if I didn’t already dislike Susatos, the attitude expressed in those posts would certainly make me decide never to buy one.

Responding calmly and positively has proven to do the opposite…take the recent Serpent whistle controversy. The maker could have been very angry and upset over the slamming his business was getting before anyone even knew anything much about it. Instead, he responded cheerfully, openly, honestly, and with a sense of humor. That made a lot of people, me included, look upon him and his business with great favor.

My advice to Steve is, calm down and relax…you aren’t going to lose potential customers over one person’s viewpoint of your business, but you CAN and may already HAVE lost some by responding so angrily. I haven’t changed my mind about shopping at your store if I ever get some extra whistle cash…so please relax and consider the effect your words may be having.

18

FJohnSharp,

I think your comment is full of wisdom, and I agree with you. I like provocative threads, what can I say? :wink:

Through all that, many of my questions at the beginning and end of the thread were left unanswered, and I’m still curious about them. If some people, instead of suggesting that the thread is deleted, would try to come up with some honnest answers, that would be great, if not then I agree for sure to leave the thread alone. That’s for the people who believed me when I said that I just wanted to have some information about things I was puzzled about.

Maybe Dale would like me or the others to let the thread die, in which case I would do so as I think he’s had enough headaches already.

19

On 2002-09-16 10:33, Loren wrote:

On 2002-09-16 10:19, TelegramSam wrote:
This board used to be so much more civilized than the other internet “hang outs” of mine.


So much for that…

Gee Sam, So far this thread has been positively tame by my standards > :laughing:

How’s school going by the way? First year of College is it?

Loren

Yes, Loren, this is kindergarten compared to some of your antics, but it’s still ridiculous. And yes I’m in college now, and it’s going as well as can be expected (I hate homework!!!)

I really don’t understand what the big deal is. So somebody doesn’t like Steve’s store and decided to whine about it. So what. If you don’t like it, don’t buy from it.

Steve, don’t get your knickers in a knot just because somebody doesn’t like your store. Whining and arguing with them only makes you look even dumber than the person whining and arguing about your store.


throws everyone a penguin BE NICE!!!

20

I tend to agree with Azalin’s aunt. My honest feelings here? I found Azalin’s original post perhaps a bit unnecessarily barbed, but not over the line.

I found Steve’s response to be also unnecessary and unwise in light of the mostly supportive comments.

I will continue to make up my own mind about where and how to do business based on my own experiences and research, which does include feedback from members whose opinions on these things I’ve come to value.

Dale, I think you should reconsider your decision or at least your basis for it. No one should ever have to give up his or her right to take appropriate legal action as desired. I think if someone actually got stupid enough to repeatedly bring unfounded or frivolous lawsuits with respect to open Board exchanges, by all means get them off the Board! However, under this set of circumstances, I think it a bit premature and somewhat unfair to hold Steve to such an up-front agreement.

This can be a difficult Board to set parameters for because we have collectors, both professional and amateur players, dabblers, dealers and makers. Therefore “openly” discussed issues like pricing and quality can take on a personal and caustic tone. Dale and Rich have done well so far as have the members - close the thread (with Dale’s as the last comment), reinstate Shanna Quay (assuming that the apology is acceptable to you notwithstanding the agreement not to sue anyone), and let’s move on.

Regards,

PhilO