Board Demographics or let's get real!

Whistle
1

I’ve again got to much time on
my hands and as this has been
on my mind and relates to
the post “Europeans” I’ll
say my peace and humbly be
quiet again for a while.
It’s of my humble opinion
that this board is not really
representive at all of the
LARGER whistle community. By
that I mean all the people
worldwide who play whistles
(Probably Millions). It
even has an absence of the
MAJORITY of makers, manufacturers,
dealers, distrubutors, recognized
masters and performers. Though
it has many Western Europeans,
and people from throughout the
world the vast majority of people
who post are from the US & CANADA.
The number of people who play
whistles in Europe far exceeds
that of the US & CANADA. Just
ask Steve Power or Brigitte Goldie
as they are even more knowledgeable
about this than I could be. We
export more whistles at SUSATO
than we sell here in the US. I’m
not trying to be arrogant or
boastful but the numbers of whistles
we sell to FRANCE (mainly Brittany)
and SPAIN (mostly Galacia) is
very significant to us and I’m
sure we aren’t the only ones with
markets in these locales. And guess
what? These folks don’t have ENGLISH
for a first language. This board
is mostly for serious amateurs,
semi-professionals, and people
afflicted with “WHOA”. I appreciate
very much the efforts of DALE and
RICH and they are very selfless,
energetic, and kind individuals
for providing this public forum
and board for me and everyone else
here. We’d (KELHORN/SUSATO)also like
to thank all our customers on this board
for buying and playing our whistles
and for the feedback. Positive as well
as the negative. It helps me afford
imported beer and I can go out
and eat Mexican whenever I want. In
the end though this board represents
at less than 5% of our end users
and what I’m really saying here is
some people here on the board are
kidding themselves if they think
they have any significant influence
on the whistle marketplace. So,
my apologies if I have offended
anyone and I’ll be interested in
what others have to say. Peace
and thanks for listening.

KELHORN MIKE

2

Actually, I’ve been purchasing thousands of whistles a year (and not just Susato) through a post office box in Galacia, mostly to avoid the US sales tax.

– Scott T.

3

Of course this board represents a minority of whistlers, not just because it’s in English, which also gets us British and Irish whistlers, but because many whistlers have no interest in being part of an online discussion about whistles.

However, 5% is a -very- significant statistical sample, much higher than 10,000 or so to represent the entire population of a country. On the other hand, there’s no concatenation of hard numbers here (usually), but I think it would be safe to say that if there are many un-contradicted complaints, there’s a problem; if there’s many un-contradicted compliments, something’s really good; if there’s a strong division (as with, for example, Susato…) then there’s a difference of tastes issue.

I think it would behoove every whistle maker to watch the boards opinions, not to necessarilly respond to every issue that might come up but to get an awareness of the general feeling of the market. I’m not aware of any correlations between posting on internet forums and variance in musical taste, so I think it’s a reasonable assumption that the posters are a fairly representative cross-section of the market. Certainly there’s a diversity of opinion enough to get some idea, even if we aren’t truly of a random statistical distribution. It’s also a lot cheaper for one or two members of a shop to skim the boards once in a while than it is to commission a statistically accurate study!


–Chris

4

There is no special interest news group or forum on the internet that comprises a representative sample of the world wide population with that interest. Anybody who thinks so is naive at best. If anything, this forum represents well those people interested in tinwhistles who have easy access to a computer and the WWW. I would venture a guess that most of these are employed in a high tech field as a programmer, engineer, etc. Not a very representative sample of the global population, but I don’t think anybody has ever claimed that C&F represents anyone other than its collective membership.

Mike

5

I think just looking at the numbers is a bit deceptive, Mike. You know your sales statistics better than any of us, I am sure. But even so, whistle makers are lucky to have access to such a grass-roots place like C & F. It’s friendly community of people willing and eager to share their views. Many here know quite a bit about whistles, and care about improvements and trends. What that means is feedback without the hassle of consumer surveys and customer questionaires. If you mean by the “let’s get real” part of your post that this sort of feedback means more to smaller, artisan-type whistlesmiths than to Feadog, Susato, or Generation, I think you’re right.

Let me ask: When you see a review of Susato whistles here on the message board, do you read it? Do you share it with George Kellhorn and the others at Susato? Do you consider it when you think about ways of improving your whistles or expanding your product line?

6

K Mike:
I read and reread your post and am not sure what point you wish to make. Pretty aggressive though…

Among others things you said: " In
the end though this board represents
at less than 5% of our end users
and what I’m really saying here is
some people here on the board are
kidding themselves if they think
they have any significant influence
on the whistle marketplace."

To deconstruct that: 5% of Susato customers. Okay, you sell recorders, too, right? And at a modest price, people buy your products in a casual way, right? And this Forum doesn’t happen to be ultra-friendly toward Susatos though I, for one, have learned that they are very popular in Ireland from this Forum. And we already know that many Europeans don;t participate because of Internet issues.

But as for the second part, it just seems like some kind of hit you are making and it may not be completely true. I own two Susatos and have been considering the VSB once again, because of this Forum.

If you want to talk about numbers, you might consider that like many things in America, a small percentage of people on this Board may be spending a lot more money than an aggregate of Susato/Clark/Gen customers in various places in the world both in how often and why they spend.

For example, because of this Board, I have purchased 6 Burke whistles, representing about $680. How many Susatos is that?? And I have modest Whoa frankly compared to others. I also buy tunebooks and a lot of cds that would push up that figure.

. We could probably run a three day survey and come up with a tally of money spent by Forum members for what’s it worth.

Having been a manager of a music store I know that a lot of people buy little trinket instruments without ever following up. As a retailer, I’d take a Forum member anyday, because they always want more.
So stating a claim of millions of customers including those who buy a whistle while visiting Ireland or somewhere else to keep the kids amused weakens the argument further.

What whistle builder would ignore this potential market? And I don’t believe that the majority of whistle builders don’t have some knowledge of the Forum, which I felt you implied. And if the Forum members are doing the stage door johnny thing with touring musicians, I bet the Forum comes up in conversations as well.

With the exception of possibly hurt feelings from flame wars, this Forum is nothing but good for the whistle. If you are addressing me for wanting a Review Board and pointing out that I entertain delusions of C&F importance, thanks for the heads-up about worldwide whistling.
I enjoy our fellowship more than worry about our ranking or importance.

And where the heck do you get Mexican food in the Carolinas?? Crikey, I didn’t know they made it that far east…

7

Hi Bloomfield,
I don’t think anyone on the board knows how many of the makers and manufacturers large
and small monitor this board and how often
they do it. We seem to know many are not
active participants. I personally agree the board has some value otherwise I’d never look or participate. As I’ve said before I don’t
honestly think many give it much weight. Most
makers/manufacturers large & small will trust/consult their personal contact with customers/players whom they know are very good players and solicit that opinion. Again, what I think (and it’s just my opinion)is that this board does not really
influence the marketplace and it’s not
really representative of the big picture. Whether it should or should not be is up for discussion. But that’s what I meant about let’s get real.

Kelhorn Mike

8

some people here on the board are
kidding themselves if they think
they have any significant influence
on the whistle marketplace.

Well, I know I’m a nobody…a slightly pudgy housewife from Oklahoma who plays only for my own enjoyment and that of my children (note I don’t mention my husband…he hates it).

I had never even heard of a whistle, much less a a Susato until not too long ago. It was because of this board that I determined I wanted a Susato someday, maybe even a couple if our budget will allow. And not only that, I’ve plastered Susato pictures in emails to my parents, my husband (fat chance he’ll get me one) and on another board where I have convinced three other people to buy whistles! Word gets around. C&F has been pretty good advertisement for you, in my case anyway.

Like a palantir…“You don’t know who else might be watching!”

9

On 2002-08-20 17:12, Kelhorn Mike wrote:
Again, what I think (and it’s just my opinion)is that this board does not really
influence the marketplace and it’s not
really representative of the big picture. Whether it should or should not be is up for discussion. But that’s what I meant about let’s get real.

I don’t think anyone here has enough ego to believe that this board is a major influence on the marketplace. Though to say that it has no influence would be equally incorrect. I certainly have had my purchasing decisions influenced by opinions expressed here.

Nor is this board a reliable reflection of the market as a whole. You are absolutely correct that we do not constitute a representative sample. However, this board does represent a vocal minority of the market, and thus should not be dismissed entirely.

As a second profession, I am a leatherworker (My first is as a senior programmer). I am quite proficient in a specialized area of leatherworking, and tend to be much more knowledgeable than my customers. However… I still carefully listen to each and every one of them. Some ideas they have had seemed very strange to me, yet ended up being quite popular. The truth is, I am often far too close to the product to see it objectively.

Oh, and one thing I never, never do is tell my customers or potential market that their opinions are not significant. It doesn’t matter if I think they are or not. By telling a potential customer, no matter how inexperienced, that they are not qualified to state their opinion, I have essentially told them that I do not value them. There are a number of boards I frequent that I must now keep my tongue firmly clamped between my teeth. I still speak my piece, but I am very careful about how I do it.

10

We, as a forum, may or may not influence whistle makers. I know that I, among others, had a problem with the Sweetheart Whistle’s 2nd octave being much harder to blow than the first. And that Ralph Sweet listened to people (customers, and potential customers) and changed his design. How much the forum itself had to do with that, as a percentage, I don’t know, nor do I think it’s relevant. The point being that there was a percieved problem..and after getting feedback (in whatever fashion), Ralph changed his whistle.

Speaking of the Sweetheart whistles, the design is undergoing a little bit more tweaking. Not to adjust the tonal qualities, but to make the whistle look more sleek and less recorderish by making the mouthpiece bulge (at the tuning slide) less prominent. I’ve heard some folks say they didn’t like the recorder look of the whistle..now they look less recorder-ish, but still look like an early-music instrument. I got to take a look at these today while I was at Melody Music plunking down my cash for a Sweetheart Whistle in maple.

I think I should take this opportunity to mention that I didn’t buy the Susato in low F that’d I’d been contemplating lately–one of the women in my band sings most of her songs in F and I want a low F for variety vs the Generation F I’ve been using. I’ll probably end up getting a Weasel low F instead. I’m personally a little disappointed in the seeming “you guys ain’t important to Susato, and your opinion doesn’t matter” attitude that Mike’s made a special point to mention more than once. (Shrug) No skin off my nose..I’ll spend my cash where it’s considered more important.

11

Mr. Kelhorn Mike,
Are you OK? Why shoot yourself in the foot with that goofy post? I’ve never read such drivel.

Tom

12

On 2002-08-20 18:14, Wandering_Whistler wrote:
–one of the women in my band sings most of her songs in F and I want a low F for variety vs the Generation F I’ve been using.

Y’know, I picked up a low-F Gold Chieftain that Phil Hardy had left over. I really didn’t think I had an immediate use for it, but figured it was a good deal, and I was already getting one of the A whistles from him. In the end, I found out what you just mentioned, quite a few female singers prefer the key of F, which has made this whistle very useful at session indeed.

13

Yes, indeed, as a member of the “Remember to Think Before You Speak (and Type) Club” I have to ask you to reflect upon these words…

What is the intended potential benefit of posting this message? What threat was one message board’s (supposedly) inflated ego going to be to any company’s sales?

What are you trying to say and why, and what kind deed are you hoping to perform in saying it, if any?

What the h*ll are you talking about?

Sorry… I tried to keep it constructive… got acid in my fingertips, keeps melting my whistles.

14

What an interesting thread. Kelhorn Mike, I read your post about 5 times but I’m still uncertain of some of your points. But, I will respond to what I think I do understand.

It’s of my humble opinion
that this board is not really
representive at all of the
LARGER whistle community.

As has been stated, it would be naive to think this forum is representative of the global whistling community. I don’t think anyone ever made that claim.

The number of people who play
whistles in Europe far exceeds
that of the US & CANADA. Just
ask Steve Power or Brigitte Goldie
as they are even more knowledgeable
about this than I could be. We
export more whistles at SUSATO
than we sell here in the US. I’m
not trying to be arrogant or
boastful but the numbers of whistles
we sell to FRANCE (mainly Brittany)
and SPAIN (mostly Galacia) is
very significant to us and I’m
sure we aren’t the only ones with
markets in these locales.

Well, its great that you have several strong markets – no business can survive without them :slight_smile: However, your argument reflects short term thinking that focusses on your current markets rather than on future growth markets – no business can thrive without growth.

I guess the question is where are those growth markets are going to be? France and Spain have a combined population of about 100 million; Canada and USA have a combined population of about 309 milion people. Assuming that a higher number of people in Europe play the whistle than in Canada/USA, then its quite possible that the potential for additional whistle sales growth in Europe is limited whereas North America whistle sales growth may be largely untapped.

In the end though this board represents at less than 5% of our end users
and what I’m really saying here is
some people here on the board are
kidding themselves if they think
they have any significant influence
on the whistle marketplace.

Assuming that the forum members are only 5% of your (current) end users you imply that they have no significant influence on the whistle marketplace? IMO this is naive. If by “whistle marketplace” you are referring to the global whistle marketplace perhaps your comment requires further thought. From what I understand the “global marketplace” for most products isn’t just one big, all-encompassing market; rather, the global marketplace is a collection of small markets that each have their own specific requirements and idiosyncracies due to differences in language, culture, and economics. Assuming this is true then this Forum provides you with access to the opinions of a large number of customers of potential customers in the Canada/USA market. But somehow you don’t see this as significant? Maybe you aren’t interested in improving your sales in Canada/USA?

Furthermore, overall your arguments do not take into account the significant effect of word-of-mouth advertising that even a very small percentage of customers can have. For example, I purchased about 20 whistles in the last 2 years based on information largely from this Forum – I have not purchased a single Susato. I now have some of my extended family and friends hooked on whistles but they don’t play Susatos either mostly because of they buy what I play.

Geesh, you can run your business anyway you want but ignoring (and insulting) customers or potential customers is usually perilous. Get real :wink:

15

I suppose to the manufacturers of whistles, an individual’s perspective is relatively inconsequential. I’ve had personal interaction with some makers who care about each whistle they send out, and know from messages posted here that there are quite a few makers I’ve not contacted who are similarly responsive.
FWIW, I currently count 11 Susatos in my whistle bag. If I interpret the first message in this thread at all accurately, it tends to make me lean against future acquisitions. And I have suggested these instruments to several folks who’ve asked about whistles to start on; should I rethink this?
“So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath…” Still pretty good advice, even if it is nearly 2000 years old.

16

An unbelievable post, indeed by a representative of corporate America. I’m surprised and disappointed. I’ve been sitting here trying to come up with a viable reason for that post, and don’t know if Kelhorn Mike is actually serious about what he’s saying, or just found himself bored and decided to start something, throw out a bunch of crap he doesn’t actually believe, and sit back and watch the action for yuks and entertainment. Either way, this post is an excellent example of corporate/customer alienation.

Several of the responses have echoed my own inner disgust, so I’m not going to add a lot…other than I’m currently looking to purchase C and A whistles and have been seriously considering either Dixon or Susato. The truly wonderful thing about capitalism, Mike, is I don’t have to support your Mexican dinners and imported beer.

17

Mike wrote:

" what I’m really saying here is
some people here on the board are
kidding themselves if they think
they have any significant influence
on the whistle marketplace."

I, like a lot of others on this forum, disagree.
I became interested in whistles because of this website and this forum, for better or worse, is the basis for a very large part of my education on and about whistles. The only basis that I have for making purchasing decisions related to whistles is the opinion of the people of this forum. I have no friends, family, or neighbors to consult and no prior music training to fall back on. The people that comprise C&F in its entirety are the friends that I relay on for help, guidance and advise.
To date I have found this website, and to the point, this forum, to be highly accurate overall. This forum has influenced every purchasing decision I have made.
What does this mean to the market place?
This year I have purchased eight whistles with a total value of $1673.00. Peripheral items (books, tuner, metronome, CDs,other) have totaled in excess of$300.00. A total of about $2,000.00. This amount has been divided among three venders.
How long does $670.00 worth of groceries feed your family? Would you prefer that they did not eat for this period of time?
I do not think that this is a unique circumstance or unique example of the impact that C&F has, and the forum has, on the buying public.
Mike, if you stand by your original statement that this is insignificant to the marketplace, as you know it then do this for me. Donate $2000.00 worth of your whistles to a missionary concern that my daughter helps to support. By my calculations you can influence 148 lives with an insignificant monetary adjustment on your part. You will have made something insignificant, significant. Post your request on this thread for the shipping address for the whistles, I will see to it that you get it.
Significant comes on different levels and everyone and thier opinion counts.
The Weekenders wrote:

And where the heck do you get Mexican food in the Carolinas??

It’s not hard to see that you don’t get to the Carolinas much!:slight_smile:
Even while sitting at my favorite table at the Sea Pines’, Harbor Town, on Hilton Head Island, I find peace in the knowledge that I can get a taco if I want one :smiley:
John

Have whistle, will travel

18

Dear Mr Mike,

You said in your post:

“It [C & F] even has an absence of the MAJORITY of makers, manufacturers…”

I’d sure like to know who all these whistle makers and manufacturers are, and why they don’t know about this little (wealthy) group of whistlers, over here in the states. I bet that these makers, if they do exist, aren’t up to par of even a Susato, so maybe it’s just as well we don’t know who they are, anyway. Your company obviously doesn’t need our little group. So why mention it?

JP


[ This Message was edited by: JohnPalmer on 2002-08-21 02:25 ]

19

Kelhorn Mike,

Are you feeling depressed? Why are you lashing out so, on a public bulletin board?

In another thread you were referring to certain people as blankety-blanks. While I do feel that certain comments alleging shoddy workmanship on the Serpent whistles, etc. were uncalled for, some of it was in jest. And there was a genuine concern on the part of some people regarding the ambiguity of the maker. Conventional wisdom says that it’s better to err on the side of caution.

On the other hand it should be pointed out that some individuals have concerns about giving their phone number and address over the Internet, and the maker may have had those concerns, which would explain their absence, as a new whistlemaker probably doesn’t have a separate business phone and address .

Indeed, by lashing out at the C&F forum members you may not lose a significant portion of your customer base, but it won’t probably help things any.

20

Recipe for Lively Post:

mix
3 parts true/accurate statements
1 part provoking statement

stand back and cover eyes, ears and genitalia until smoke is cleared.

In a way, Mike is making accurate statements. It may in fact be true that there are a significant number of people who purchase whistles overseas. It may even be true that there is a significant number of manufacturers who havent registered on Dale’s radar screen who actually sell a large volume of whistles. And it may be true that if Mike actually did manage to piss off each and every C&F member so that they never purchased another one of his whistles ever again, he’d still be making the big Euros and eating Fajitas and drinking Warsteiner Dunkel any darn time he pleases.

But this speaks to the universe of those who simply buy whistles. That is the World of Whistlery that concerns Mike, but its not the world that necessarily concerns us here. What we care about is the infinitely smaller subset of those people who, like ourselves, care enough about the instrument and the musical tradition to find and log on to the C&F site, and to become better informed (and perhaps even more musically proficient) players.

I launched the Whistle Annex site three and a half months ago. Since then I’ve had about 2,500 hits on the index page, and almost 8,000 total hits on the entire site, peanuts I know, but still far in excess of my initial expectations. 25% of my traffic comes from Dale’s links, which tells me that there are a lot of beginners, lurkers to the site, who are interested in learning more details about the whistle. Just ask Rich about the insane number of hits the Chiff site gets on a daily basis (OK, 1/3 of those are probably from Loren, Bloo, Walden and Enders, but that still leaves a lot).

Anyway, my experiences as a member of the C&F community and as host of the Whistle Annex tells me that there are a LOT of lurkers out there who care enough to spend time on our sites, and amongst them I do believe that the Board has an impact.

I’ve never met, talked with or exchanged emails with Mike, but I can imagine that it must be annoying for him to hear our pontifications about “all things whistle” when so much of his market doesnt even know C&F exists. I understand that his annoyance may cause him to say things designed to take us down a few pegs, to put us in our “place”, to give us a “reality check” and realize that we dont “own” the whistle world like he does, that we dont “know” the whistle world like he does.

Apples and Oranges. In Mike’s Whistle World, Mike is right. In Dale’s Whistle World (admittedly a smaller world), however, there is no need for the “reality check” that Mike seeks to impose.