The McHaffie Affair

Whistle
1

This posting has been prompted by a couple of other postings and a bit of time to get some perspective on the McHaffie affair.

It will help me to apologize for my part in that sordid series of event. I feel that I dropped the ball and I want to extend my apologies to those who got burned.

McHaffie sent me two or three of his whistles for comments. I thought they were rough prototypes but later realized that he intended to sell them as finished products. I gave feedback to him along the lines of, you know, keep working, I encourage you to continue to develop these, etc. As I typically have done, I just didn’t say much of anything on the board or website or newsletter. Then I note that he was selling them and getting some positive comments. This surprised me, but I thought maybe he had made improvements, or SOMETHING. What I think I should have done at that point is to start privately emailing people who had his whistles and tried to figure out what was up. If I had learned that what he was selling was these rough products, I would have liked to think that I would have chimed in about my concerns. I don’t feel responsible for his work or for the fact that he vanished holding people’s money…I just wish I had taken more of an active role. I don’t make excuses and I’m not apologizing to get anyone’s particular reaction. What would help me is,if you are so inclined, is to accept my apology and let’s move on. I learned something from it.

Dale

[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2002-08-09 11:53 ]

2

Dale,

From my point of view the McHaffie story is just a good lesson that we have to remember. People saying that “this whistle is amazing!” doesnt mean anything 'cause these people don’t actually play well. We just have to be very careful in believing someone’s review of a whistle, and maybe we ought to know more about the reviewer before making any purchase decision. Anyway, I’ll sound cruel but the people who bought McHaffie whistles are the same people who’s invested thousands of dollars in companies just by reading some fake scams on the internet. We just need to be careful when we spend money and it’s no one else’s fault than our own. Maybe the fact that McHaffie is just a lying bastard doesnt help though… :wink:

3

Of course, another thing is, you can’t be afraid to share your opinion just because it may not agree with other’s opinions!!! (like saying you don’t like a particular whistle even though others may say that it’s fantastic…) You have a right to think what you want, and a right to make decisions based on that! It’s a free world people! :smiley:

4

Growing pains on the ol’ Forum. As membership expands, inevitable, the power of the site’s influence grows whether you want it or not.

This is the third thread this week simultaneously addressing similar issues. Must be time to powwow and develop some more strategies and policies.

I had considered proposing a Board of Reviewers based on their knowledge of whistles, ownership of many types etc. In a way, you already have such a thing…
Sounds a little pretentious but I think we should distinguish between careful reviews and our day-to-day griping. But could the Board agree with each other?

We do want to be able to gripe for certain and also make connections with others who have similar tastes but our opinions are indeed suspect as there is always someone who has tried more whistles than the next guy. So the gripes should be taken as such.

I bought a Burke in large part due to the recommendations on this Forum, especially Busman’s review. I am grateful as it worked out.

But does anybody want to get sucked into endorsements and possible taints that can be charged??? Or, I guess, that is already happening? You mentioned email but not what they said.

We love ya Dale and appreciate that you are including us in fleshing this matter out.

5

Dale,

You are a hero to many of us that got a start because of your honest and valuable critiques. You never lead me on and I know you didn’t John, either. At one time he asked my opinion but never sent a whistle I could respond to. I suppose I’m also guilty of not being more blunt, though I did tell him to not ignore Dale Wisely whose opinion has much weight.


I think he just rushed ahead of common sense. I do wish he’d try to clear the mess up.

But hey, he did start the clips and snips didn’t he? That’s been a plus for the community.

Mack

PS Apology accepted! WE LOVE YOU MAN!

6

Dale, don’t flog yourself too much. I was one of the fortunate few who got their money back from MacHaffie. Took 7-8 months, but I did get it.

But that was more a lesson on conducting business over the internet, than anything else.

I continue to find this and the other forums informative (most of the time), entertaining (more often than not), and even sometimes thought-provoking. Where else in the world I ask can one connect with so many musicians at one time?!

Keep at it!

-Tom

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-08-09 13:19 ]

7

I’ve got way to much time lately
and have probably been sticking my
nose in too many places but here
goes again. I think Weekenders
idea for a Board of Reviewers is
excellent if it can be properly
implimented. Limit the board
to maybe 5 very qualified
individuals, ( I suggest 2 from
the USA, 1 Canadian, 2 Europeans
for geographic diversity).
Could a fair election be held
somehow? Democracy in action is
a great thing I think. Perhaps
makers & manufacturers could voluntarily supply 3 of the reviewers with
any new model whistle they wish to offer
to the marketplace. Anyone can
of course still post any comments
they wish but this would raise
the bar a little bit and be
reliable information especially
for beginners & newbies.
More ideas? What do think, Dale?
I’ll be quiet now!

Kelhorn Mike

8

I don’t believe this…Next thing ya know all the whistle makers will be scrambling to assemble their own PAC’s. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Loren

9

Of Course Loren,
Didn’t expect you would like it. A
little fair play isn’t up your alley,
is it?

10

Board of Reviewers? I am against it. I am against any such kind of formalism, and wouldn’t want to let the beauty of free-flowing messageboardism go.

The only point of such an institution would be to lend weight to the Official Review. But if someone sees a whistle review here on the board, the interested reader can go and check out the reviewer. All the old posts are here and the search function is but a click away. A little search would reveal that Loren used to own more whistles anyone, with the exception of Dale and perhaps JessieK, and that he is very careful in his reviews as well as less timid than others in expressing negative opinions. It would reveal the Brother Steve has the best whistle tutorial on the web and probably knows what he is talking about. If someone read my review of the Mk III or the VSB/SB D comparison and wanted to know who it is that’s speaking, they’d find a lot of silly posts and would know not to afford my views much weight. You get from a message board what you are willing to put into it, and I don’t see a need to pander to the one-time poster who can’t even be bothered to find the reviews on the main page, let alone run a search.

And there is another point: Mike Kellhorn has griped about “unqualified” negative reviews here on the board. How would he feel if the the official, formally elected and constituted, international and authoritative Board of Reviewers stated that Susato whistles tend to be out of tune with themselves? Don’t tell me it couldn’t happen, there’ve been several “unqualified” complaints about that. It wouldn’t be pretty. And an “only-positive” Board of Reviewers would be a perversity.

I think on sober reflection whistle smiths should consider themselves blessed with the online whistle community the way it is and they should pray that Dale doesn’t wake up cranky one morning.


\

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-08-09 15:25 ]

11

I see two major problems with whistle reporting on the board.

  1. People will not be open and honest about their opinions. If someone does not like something about a whistle they will either keep it to themselves so say email me privately to find out the truth. It's not libelous to state an opinion with supporting evidence.
  2. One man's trash is another man's treasure. We don't all share the same likes and dislikes in whistles. The Whistle Review Board would have to be much larger than 5 people taking into account various levels of player proficiency and tastes.

I wholeheartedly disagree with Azalin’s comments about whistle buyers being suckers (my words). You order a whistle, pay the money, and then wait for it to be made and delivered. That’s just the way the business works. A whistle maker who delivers free whistles and then says pay me if you like it would probably go out of business quite quickly.

In the past I have stupidly stated that we should pass whistles around and let everyone try-before-you-buy. A whistle lending-library. This is seeming to be less stupid each time I think of it. But it is not without it’s pitfalls as well. Can you trust sending whistles to strangers who may or may not take excellent car of them for a couple of days? Will you ever see your whistles again? Again, it all boils down to honesty and trust.

12

John said

A whistle maker who delivers free whistles and then says pay me if you like it would probably go out of business quite quickly.

Actually, John Sindt sends the whistle with a bill. You then send the payment to him. He has gained a lot of respect doing this.

13

My eyes roll with Loren’s. Lets not get bureaucratic about all this.

Next time I’m thinking of buying a particular whistle make, I will post the following:

I’m thinking of buying a ________________.
Please email me any caveats.

Lisa

14

[quote]

If someone read my review of the Mk III or the VSB/SB D comparison and wanted to know who it is that’s speaking, they’d find a lot of silly posts and would know not to afford my views much weight. --Bloomfield

[quote]

I might just want a silly whistle.

Lisa

People could email me caviar instead of caveats…



[ This Message was edited by: ysgwd on 2002-08-09 16:17 ]

15

Some of you folk are very fickle and seem to enjoy de-constructing ideas more than presenting your own.

A problem was stated and I suggested a possible solution. Did you? Or do you think its a problem at all? Dale did so I responded.

I want to point out that some of the same people who object to these proposed limits and moderators contributed to the formation of the new Forum, which has limits and some degree of self moderation.

And Lisa complained about a bad experience on the other Thread but now is backing off from a possible form of protection…She wanted to state the name of the builder who gave her trouble which is more inflammatory even than my lousy jokes.

I like all of you guys but I feel that some may be playing both sides of the issue just for fun, I guess. It wasn’t fun for Dale or he wouldn’t have posted an apology.

Glenn Schulz sends the whistle out unpaid, if you don’t like it, you send it back. He’s pretty respected and well-known…
Best to all.



[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-08-09 17:00 ]

16

On 2002-08-09 11:43, DaleWisely wrote
What would help me is,if you are so inclined, is to accept my apology and let’s move on. I learned something from it.

Dale

[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2002-08-09 11:53 ]

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread at all until the idea of a review board was suggested. Dale’s initial statement didn’t involve me, but changing the nature of the way whistle makes are discussed here does affect me. But, not so much that I can’t work my way around the change. And that is thanks to Dale’s lighthanded leadership.

Lisa

17

I, for one, want as many opinions as possible, positive and negative. I don’t care if their beginners or experienced, though I weight those opinions (as I weigh all opinions) based on what I know of the poster. A committee has no weight with me as far as personal opinion.

I like hearing how wonderful Mike Burke is (for example), and I like hearing how sometimes he drops the ball and isn’t forthcoming with answering mail. The more people talk, the better informed we all are, even if their opinion is not in line with Generally Accepted Posting Policies…at least we learn about them.

I like hearing Loren’s ascerbic remarks… he’s pointed out some really shady things, as well as needling people about matters I don’t agree with him about. From all his posts I know that he isn’t trying to lie or sugar coat, or be deceptive. I like hearing the newcomers to the board and to whistling, and hearing their enthusiasm, and sometimes their opinion of their Brand X gives me cause to go back and try it again.

Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that a forum is just that. . .a way to exchange ideas, and if someone wants to go ‘official’ I will be highly amused, but have little respect for it.

18

On 2002-08-09 15:11, Kelhorn Mike wrote:
Of Course Loren,
Didn’t expect you would like it. A
little fair play isn’t up your alley,
is it?

(Sigh) See what I get when I try to be the “Kinder, Gentler Loren”? I make a comment (suggesting too much buracracy) regarding Mike’s idea, and he comes back with a personal insult, even though I’ve said nothing to earn that in this or the other related thread. Very Well…

I can’t imagine why you think your idea whould threaten me? A) I know there’s no way in hell that Dale is going to ask people to stop posting their reviews here, and B) I’m basically out of the review business, having stepped aside for the new blood to carry on with the majority of those activities.

So what does this have to do with fair play? You’re the one who wants control here - looking to have only certain “Types” review whistles, people you think would more favorably review your products. You’re view point is so “Big Business” it’s nauseating.

I think it’s interesting (and quite telling) that you put blame on many of your customers when they are unhappy with your product. You’ve stated several times that you and Susato only respect the opinions of th Pro players, highly skilled players, and your distributors. Tell us Mike, what percentage of your total sales do the top players make up? If your’s is like most musical instrument sales businesses, the vast majority of your whistles are sold to rank amatures, many only beginners.

IMO you’ve got a pretty lame customer service focus if your attittude is “The pro’s can play our whistles just fine, so quit your whining you uneducated lousy playing little wussies!” Most business try to LISTEN to what the of majority of their customers have to say (in this case that would be the non-pros), with the goal being to accomodate the needs of the people who pay your bills.

One need look no further than Colin Goldie to find the polar opposite of your elitest attitude. Let’s use Low D’s as an example: If anyone could have sat back and said “If our Low D is good enough for (Long List of prominent whistle players, including Davy Spillane) then it’s good enough for you. If you can’t make that long stretch and cover those huge finger holes, then you better get to practicing you bloody lamer!”, again if anyone could have rightly said that, it would have been Bernard Overton and Colin Goldie. Instead, Colin set out to adjust his tone hole sizes and spacing to meet the needs of his customers, and for several years now he’s made one of the easiest to finger Low D’s on the market. Michael Burke has also made accomodations in this area, offering two different hole spacing patterns for his customers to choose from. Others have followed.

These guys (and others) don’t gripe when a customer has a hard time playing their whistles. They don’t say, “look, what you say really has no merit because you’re just a beginner” (like you do Mike), what they do is say “I’m sorry this isn’t working out for you, what can I do to help you”, and one need look no further than the last page or so of this message board to see how this attitude stands Colin in peoples minds when it comes to customer service. Hey, his whistles may not be for everyone, but no one doubts that he respects his customers, and whistle players in general, regardless of their level of ability. Many of the whistle makers are this way, unfortunately some, like you Mike, show a total lack of respect for any player that doesn’t meet your standards (doesn’t review your whistles well).

In the end this is all about damage control and spin for you and Susato Mike, anyone who looks closely will see that. You rarely ever post here to help people, you mainly post here when it suits your business needs, and now you’re lobying for something that would cut down the negative reviews of the product you produce. Somehow I don’t think this is going to help you sell more whistles or gain any respect from most people here after what you’ve said.

Loren

19

On 2002-08-09 16:35, The Weekenders wrote:
Some of you folk are very fickle and seem to enjoy de-constructing ideas more than presenting your own.

A problem was stated and I suggested a possible solution. Did you? Or do you think its a problem at all? Dale did so I responded.

I want to point out that some of the same people who object to these proposed limits and moderators contributed to the formation of the new Forum, which has limits and some degree of self moderation.

I like all of you guys but I feel that some are playing both sides of the issue just for fun, I guess.

Hey, Weekenders, no reason to play “some people” games. I can handle it trust me.

I am very fickle. I haven’t presented “an idea”. I don’t really think it’s a problem. I contributed to the formation of the new forum. I like you, too.

But do I play both sides of the issue for fun? No. Your idea is not very good, in my very humble opinion, but certainly not as stupid as things that I have said in the past. (It is also a bit surprising that you should suggest institutions in preference over self-government of the people.)

I can’t suggest a fix to the problem, because I don’t see a problem. (Nor does Dale, btw.) Trust me as soon as the first not-glaringly-positive review gets issued by the Official Board, the whistle makers won’t think that it’s a good idea anymore, either. The world according to Mike Kellhorn is divided into two classes: The good players who are polite enough only to say nice things or be quiet, and the unqualified hacks who will say negative things out loud. So the idea is to give more weight and authority to the good players in hopes that even as Official Reviewers they’ll be polite and not say negative things? And everyone who says something negative is a hack? Oh, come on.

(And what does this have to do with the ITM forum?)


P.S. Loren: Just saw your reply to MK. I didn’t think the “fair play” comment against you was justified, and I agree that some thought is necessary about who actually buys most whistles.

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-08-09 17:17 ]

20

ROFLMAO! I just did my homework and realized who thought of that idea for reviews!

Another case of two of my fave needlers pointing out the obvious to lamers like me.

Mike, manufacturers don’t need to set up a board of review. . .we plebes will do it for you. Take our opinions and run with them. Or don’t.