Open Letter to Dale Wisely

Whistle
21

Much of what I would say has already been said:

  1. Both overdid it a bit.
  2. In my book, any real damage suffered by Steve in this affair will result from how he reacted to Azalin, not by what Az actually said.
  3. In the end, Dale should reinstate his links to Steve and Bygones all around.

To all that has been said I will contribute this: The discussion of legal rights and “threats” of legal action have brought an element to the board to which I have had a very negative emotional response. Heated and controversial threads are as integral to this board as whistle reviews and photos of Ms. Corr, and the membership always has, (and I hope always will) find/found reasonable ways to deal with Flagrant and Inflammatory Unreasonableness. There was nothing in Az’s post that I saw would not have been handled in the same fashion…indeed it wasn’t long before people chimed in with glowing customer service testimonials and price comparisons and all that.

What disturbed me the most about this thread was the introduction of a new tactic which I sincerely hope will not become a new and future occurrance on the board, namely the use of the “I’m gonna seek legal advice because I think you are libelling me” card when someone doesnt like whats been said in a post.

Obviously, if someone really did libel someone else, then there is no special immunity because it was said in a forum. But lets be real, here…I find it hard to believe that anyone really believes that anything AZ said in his post had any real negative impact on Steve’s business, but more than that, if anyone (particularly whistlesmiths and vendors) ever feel that something some yutz says on this board is libelous, then don’t talk about getting legal advice, JUST GO AND DO IT, get your legal advice, get your lawyer’s opinion on whether you have a real issue, and then govern yourself accordingly in a discreet manner off forum. In most cases I suspect the reaction will be exactly as it was in Az’s case…the calm professional will laugh at the Childishness of Whistlery and suggest that there are more constructive things in life on which to focus.

I have always said that this is a great board that can overcome just about everthing (Yes, even your most vitriolic moments, Loren). Not so on this issue. While no legal action is likely ever to be warranted as a result of any discussion on this board, I do think that if this becomes a more regular dynamic in the future, the nature of the forum will change for the worse, that fear and hestitancy will stifle discussion and fair criticism and fair negative comments that are legitimate topics of conversation for the value and benefit of all, and that the value and integrity of this forum will be seriously compromised.

It does surprise me when vendors fail to realize what a wonderful, positive and rewarding marketing opportunity situations like this (i.e. an apparently critical and potentially factually incorrect post by an apprently disgruntled or unhappy customer or potential customer) can be if handled properly, and how damaging situations like this can be from a public relations point of view if not handled properly.

22

Steve, My girlfriend’s family lives at 15 minutes from your shop, so we might just end up having a chat in person as I’m around often, being in Canada right now.

I see…and that wasn’t a threat? Right?

Either way, you’re not welcome in my shop. If you enter it, I’ll call the Gardi and tell them about the very real physical threat that I percieved you made against me in writing. And I doubt that, unlike your aunt, they will laugh. (legal action is OK in a civilised society, violence is not, OK?). Now, I’m off the board, for good.

Steve


[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-09-16 14:01 ]

23

You’re leaving the board because one overly vocal person accused you of being over priced, and said he might talk to you in person?

24

Steve seems to be smarter than we give him credit for.
By posting here he has drawn more attention to his site and his products that he could possibly get by paid advertising.
As most business people will tell you it is difficult to get your name out there. Steve has now succeeded in making his name common place with most of the whistlers who use this board and when we see his products we will make the connections that we know the name if we do not remember from where.
Since we are his target market and we will remember his name he has achieved his goal.
Now he will see if our memory is of good thoughts or bad because that translated into dollars.

25

I see…and that wasn’t a threat? Right?

Either way, you’re not welcome in my shop. If you enter it, I’ll call the Gardi and tell them about the very real physical threat that I percieved you made against me in writing. And I doubt that, unlike your aunt, they will laugh. (legal action is OK in a civilised society, violence is not, OK?). Now, I’m off the board, for good.

Steve


[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-09-16 14:01 ]

Common Sense Rule: NEVER stand upwind during a pissing contest

Teri

26

On 2002-09-16 14:08, Teri-K wrote:

Common Sense Rule: NEVER stand upwind during a pissing contest

Teri

Wouldn’t that…

Oh, never mind. Do it your way.

27

Steve,
Azalin simply suggested that you could talk it over in person. He never suggested any sort of threats - and certainly not one of physical violence. YOU and ONLY YOU, were the one who construed it as a threat of violence. I am starting to think that you are more than a little paranoid.

Chris

28

If anyone is interested (and I am), Mr. Powers had a very similar exchange with Phillipe Varlet on the IR-TRAD list not so long ago.

Here’s a quick snippet from one of the posts in the related discussion:

"Mr. Power is no stranger to threats of a legal nature. He has issued them
himself to a friend of mine a little while ago. "

Check out this link if you are interested in reading more:

http://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0111&L=irtrad-l&P=R18682&I=-3

If you want to read the rest of the thread (and you should, it’s great fun), go back to the search page and search for messages containing the subject “so you know who you are dealing with”. :roll:

Best,
Chris

29

All I have to go on is the single experience I’ve had with Steve. A few months ago, I bought a CD from him. I thought the price was a bit high by US standards, but hey, the CD wasn’t available anywhere else, so I bought it anyway. It was wonderful! Well worth the price, and I highly recommend “Teantrai”, but that’s not what this is about…

Imagine my surprise when I received not only the CD, but a nice fabric whistle-case with Velcro closure, suitable for both a C and a D, and a short, but nice, hand-written note from Steve, thanking me for my purchase!

I will be buying from Shanna Quay again, I can guarantee you.

I charge $90USD plus S&H for a high whistle. They don’t cost me anywhere near that much in materials and tool depreciation. Is my price too high? There are people who think it is, and they don’t buy one. There are also people who think it’s too little, because they understand the effort, care, and service that goes with the price. And there are those who vote favorably with their money, and I, like Steve, try to do my very best to give them value, and to let them know their business is appreciated.

Their is a huge difference between charging what you think an item is worth, and trying to nick your customers for everything you can get!

And the bottom line: If you don’t like what someone charges for an item, just go find it elsewhere - vote with your pocketbook.

Best wishes,
Bill “Serpent” Whedon
Serpent Music
http://www.serpentmusic.com

30

On 2002-09-16 14:06, Wizzer wrote:
By posting here he has drawn more attention to his site and his products that he could possibly get by paid advertising.

I considered this notion myself. After lookin at the two threads relating to Steve’s website, I took a gander over that way myself. I saw nickel generation whistles at 14 euros ($13.59 according to xe.com), which is about $10.00 more than I paid for mine. I don’t think I’ll be shopping at steve’s site any time soon for generations :wink:

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-09-16 14:53 ]

31

Hmmmm, that wasnt a threat, as even if I were a fighting guy, I wouldnt risk breaking one of my fingers and lose access to my biggest passion in the world, and job (programming). I said I wanted to have a chat in person, because I’m angry and at that point we need to talk in person. My girlfriend’s family’s in Bruff and Knockainy, so going to your shop wouldnt have been that big of a problem, that’s what I meant. Anyway, if you’re paranoid now there’s not much I can do. But now a visit to your shop isnt a viable option, as I don’t want to spend the short time I’ll have with my girlfriend in prison! Wow, I can’t believe you took everything so personnal, even saying that you’ll leave the board. I think you’ve got a nice website, and the customer service you’re offering is great. People love your buisness, and had good experience with. People were answering positively to the thread, it was actually good advert. for your buisness. I was starting to understand that for single items, your shop is very good (beside the set), and wanted to ask more questions about purchasing multiple items, which seems very expensive if I do the maths right.

A few months ago, I replied to one of your commercial message saying that your message was “crap”. Yeah, my intent was to say that I didnt like commercial messages. I was direct, to the point. You seem to think I’ve got evil intents with my most recent thread. If I wanted to ruin your buisness Steve, I would start my own and be aggressive on prices, I wouldnt try to subtily hurt you. Why you think I want to ruin your buisness? I don’t know, it obvious I never liked you, since july 2001 when you sent me a few replies about my views on Ireland, when I was cycling around Ireland for 3 months, but I would never bring that up to your buisness or personnal life.

I am grateful to the people who spoke their mind clearly, without resorting to things like “you should delete the thread” etc. There’s too many people playing the moderators, instead of just giving their mind. I don’t agree that Steve should leave the board, and I don’t agree that his link should be removed. It’s too bad that some people don’t have this degree of openess when facing ideas they don’t agree with, I never suggested that anyone’s thread or post gets deleted.

32

On 2002-09-16 14:23, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
If anyone is interested (and I am), Mr. Powers had a very similar exchange with Phillipe Varlet on the IR-TRAD list not so long ago.

Here’s a quick snippet from one of the posts in the related discussion:

"Mr. Power is no stranger to threats of a legal nature. He has issued them
himself to a friend of mine a little while ago. "

Interesting one, ofcourse the diffeence between SP nad Philippe V is that while Phillippe is no stranger to advertising his own business on interenet forums but he is also very knowledgeable about the music, old recordings etc and is always willing to share that knowledge and supply information without trying to flog you something.
I have never ever seen any musical insight or useful information on the music emerge from Steve and that is probably why his relentless plugging of his shop became so irritating. To me he topped it when we were discussing the Tommy McCarthy memorial concert, remembering a friend of many and highly regarded musician whose sad and untimely death is with those who knew him all the time. Steve broke into tell us he could supply the CD. Now that was pretty bad taste I thought. Offcourse that was all my fault with my inflated ego as he on was trying to supply information as a service to his customers. His leaving is no loss to the board.

[edited for clarity ]



[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-09-17 04:11 ]

33

All I can say is WOW…this is all a
bit excessive. Some will probably laugh
at that coming from me. Only my very,
very, humble opinion but I do think
Azalin crossed a line of sorts with
the original topic and Steve probably
did overeact and I kinda feel for DALE
being in the middle of all the BS and
I’ve probably put him in the middle in
the past as well but not to this extreme.
One thing I’ll say in defense of Steve
is his shop is his living and that’s
true for other merchants, makers,
manufacturers, etc. on this board.
It’s how we feed ourselves, our
family, pay the mortage, and with a
little luck send our kids to college.
So, when somebody for whom whistles
is a ardent passion or serious
hobby attacks that livelyhood expect
that individual “in the business”
to defend themselves. It can be and
sometimes is almost everything they have invested in that “business”.
Hopefully another perspective that’s not
miscontrued or misinterperted. Of
the temporarily inactive list
KELHORN MIKE

34

On 2002-09-16 12:40, PhilO wrote:

Dale, I think you should reconsider your decision or at least your basis for it. No one should ever have to give up his or her right to take appropriate legal action as desired. I think if someone actually got stupid enough to repeatedly bring unfounded or frivolous lawsuits with respect to open Board exchanges,

This isn’t the first time Steve has threatened legal action because he didn’t like what someone wrote.

It’s not acceptable to threaten Dale or myself with a libel suit whenever someone writes something on the board one finds disagreeable. I run the machine this board runs on out of my own pocket, and if I have to pay for a lawyer on top of that, I’m not going to bother – it just goes away.

So speak as long as you want on his “right” to threaten people with frivolous lawsuits, but keep in mind that he’s not threatening the people he doesn’t like, he’s threatening the people that provide the forum.

    -Rich
35

Dale, I suggest marijuana all around because it really is embarassing to explain to anyone how one’s arse gets kicked by a whistle player. :slight_smile:

36

Mr. Kelhorn, glad to see you’re still lurking. I’ve been thinking about the Susato bent-necks. That’s a great idea. Not only easier to handle, but an interesting appearance.

I think you raise a good point about it being some people’s livelihood, while only an interest for others. That seriousness is one reason for the businessman reflecting carefully before saying or doing anything which might harm his business.

37

KMike, I think that the “defense” should be:

“Yes, some of my prices may be higher on selected items. I do my best with service and reliability though and hope you will consider giving me custom in the future.”

Period. You just can’t have any more than that and you have to live with the uncertainty or anxiety of people’s decision-making processes. It may sound weak but to pump testosterone, legal threats etc into defending your business has “LOSER” written all over it, I am sorry to say (I have done business with Steve and been very pleased with his service and personal touch, btw). In the end, the people who count will remember the road you took under attack, so choose wisely. To do business in any other fashion will only bring unhappiness even if you attain temporary profit.

As a retail manager of several stores in my career, I learned that “price-only” customers are the least valuable, least friendly and least loyal to all the GOOD work you do in your business. When I sold guitars, I dreaded certain customers known for bargaining because time after time, the outcome was unpleasant. If I made a sale, I made no money. If I didn’t make the sale, my time was wasted and they knew it and lengthened the process for that reason so I would desparately make the sale.

It sucked and I hate that way of doing business. I get no thrill from it and I have little respect for those who do. Of all the worthless pursuits to put your manhood into, that has to be the worst (I’m talking extreme fixation here and everyone has seen examples, I am NOT addressing you, Azalin!).

To react in more proactive ways has resulted in this minor disaster in which everyone has come up with mud on their shoes or worse.

The cliché “Character counts” comes to mind. I want to believe SteveP has character but this whole event has made me feel that we on the Forum (in his eyes) are really naive and need to be protected from consumer knowledge or else his business will go down the tubes.
I just don’t want to believe this of you, Steve.

Has Thom Larson ever gotten into this situation? I haven’t yet done business with him but he has maintained a commercial presence by the compliments of C&Fers that makes me WANT to do business with him.

That is effective advertising.

I wish peace to Steve Power and lets get this all behind us. Every day is a new chance to get it right, and that includes Azalin, Dale Force, Steve and yours truly.

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-09-16 17:38 ]

38

Steve,.. if you’re lurking, which I hope you are..

Back off. The initial post was a bit inflammatory, but on balance you have got a lot of positive coverage on this board. I’ve even contributed to it myself because I was very happy with the excellent service which I got from you and the value seemed fine to me. It saddens me to see this kind of dogfight going on anywhere, but especially on C&F. It really belongs outside a pub after closing time.

C&F has been a haven of good humour and helpfulness since I discovered it, apart from one or two people occasionally descending into a form of shit-stirring which I wish they’d save for somewhere else.

I think that the consensus is that even if some offence was given you are overreacting. Cool off for a while and come back when you’re in better humour.

Roger


Blessed are the cheesemakers.

39

Ok Rich, now I’m a bit ticked off. I don’t appreciate your misquoting me and because you’re the Board host or whatever does not mean I’ll sit down for it either bucko! I did not say that we should put up with frivolous law suits; rather I said that’s the point at which you should dump someone from the Board.

See how difficult this is in e-mail; hard to tell when someone is actually angry sometimes or really threatening, etc. I don’t really know you Rich, yet I initially got ticked and felt attacked by the tone of your response. However, I then remembered that what I really want to suggest is that we move on here and that it seems a shame that one of our retailers is going off the Board albeit he does seem to be sending messages that reflect going overboard (calling the police and all that). I also took a moment as I was writing to understand the unwarranted pressure you guys have running the Board. You also have a point and a right to put someone off the Board who even threatens such lawsuits; I suppose it makes me feel bad that would have to happen, though. But that said, no need for you to get so pissy. I challenge you to a duel with Copeland Low Ds forthwith!

At your disposal and glove to your face (gee, is that a threat?)

Philo

40

I hope we can all settle down a little, now.
It’s disappointing to see good people being hurt by the comments of others, and to see so much misunderstanding arise in our communication.
We all owe a great debt to Dale for bringing this forum to life, and I feel we should at least do him the service of acting in a responsible manner.
I think we can all learn something from this episode, and if we do, some progress will have been made.
Best wishes to you all,
Adrian.