Flute versus whistle for Irish music

I think this has been resolved, to the most part, since Csharpd did the experiment for himself and heard the difference. Why his daughter thought the same (that a high D whistle is one tone above middle C, in his example) may have to do with the relatively complex harmonic pattern of the vibrations of the string (in the piano) versus the fewer harmonics audible in most whistles; she may associate the middle C on the piano with its higher harmonics and thence the confusion.

Csharpd mentions something else that’s quite important to the perception of pitch, and that’s timbre. Gosh, let me think of a good example from vocal music. OK. Take Tracy Chapman, who is a breathy alto. Think of how she sounds. Now, if you listen to her sing, it sounds like she’s singing quite low. Then take, oh, gosh, hmm . . . any one of the Three Tenors. Most of what they sing is in the same general range of what Chapman sings, but it sounds like they’re pitched higher. Even though they’re not. I think it probably has to do with what harmonics are the loudest.

As for the flute pitch . . . flute is one of the few instruments that’s traditionally not transposing. Meaning, you play a D, you get the same D in the same octave as what’s on the page. Whistle, meaning standard high D, is usually written an octave down because it’s easier to read when it sits nicely on one of the clefs (G clef, in this case) rather than on a bunch of ledger lines. If we were being REALLY retentive about whistle music notation, we’d put an 8 over the treble clef, signifying that all the notes are written an octave lower than they sound.

A transposed treble clef is most commonly used in vocal music by tenors, whose music is usually on treble clef written with an 8 underneath it, meaning that the notes are actually sounded an octave below what’s written. Classically-trained tenors, though, usually can read three clefs: bass clef (where the tenor part sits in a church hymnal), octave treble clef (where a lot of choral music is written), or even the dreaded C clef. C clef, if you never sang tenor or never played one of those middle-range instruments like the viola, is a WEIRD bugger. It shows you where C is, and you go from there. As you may not know if you’re self-taught, the circle in the treble clef surrounds G, hence the name ‘G-clef.’ The two dots in the bass clef surround F, so it’s also called the ‘F-clef.’ C-clef is like a double-loop which straddles C. C-clef is the least common and perhaps the hardest to read, since you can make any line you want C depending on how you draw the clef. But I digress. :wink:

I talked about transposing instruments. . . by that, I mean things like the usual trumpet, which is in B-flat. So, when you see a written C, and finger a C, the note that comes out is a B-flat. There are C-trumpets, more useful for orchestral music, that play a C when you finger a C. But a marching band (or high-school band) trumpet transposes.

Just an FYI, since it’s sometimes confusing to hear people talk about an instrument in a certain pitch and wonder if it transposes or not. No matter what, uilleann pipe music is written with the bell tone on D. Strictly speaking, in classical terms, concert-pitch uilleann pipes are in C, C# pipes are in B, C pipes are in B-flat, and B pipes are in A. See what I mean?

For a B chanter:

Written note: low D
Note which sounds: B
so . . . for a written C, the instrument plays an A . . . so some folks outside the Irish tradition would call B pipes “A pipes,” because of that relationship between what’s on the page and what plays.

Confused?

:wink:

Stuart

On 2002-05-11 18:18, sturob wrote:
I think this has been resolved, to the most part, since Csharpd did the experiment for himself and heard the difference. Why his daughter thought the same (that a high D whistle is one tone above middle C, in his example) may have to do with the relatively complex harmonic pattern of the vibrations of the string (in the piano) versus the fewer harmonics audible in most whistles; she may associate the middle C on the piano with its higher harmonics and thence the confusion.

Maybe that explains something. I tried the comparison on my hammered dulsimer. I played the D just above middle C on the dulcimer and then on the whistle. I found it very difficult to make an assignment to the proper octave. The D on the whistle matched the D4 on the dulcimer to my ear. Very annoying. It was much easier to hear the proper octave by playing part of a tune on each instrument.

Steve

Anyway, I started on whistle;now
I’m learning flute. Apples, oranges,
I reckon. But I wonder how the
low D whistle, a good one, compares
with a low D celtic flute?

Are they more or less interchangeable?

So for a low D whistle, the bell note is D above middle C, and for a high D, the bell note is the D above C above middle C. Right?
kitty

On 2002-05-11 18:18, sturob wrote:
I think this has been resolved…
Just an FYI, since it’s sometimes confusing to hear people talk about an instrument in a certain pitch and wonder if it transposes or not. No matter what, uilleann pipe music is written with the bell tone on D. Strictly speaking, in classical terms, concert-pitch uilleann pipes are in C, C# pipes are in B, C pipes are in B-flat, and B pipes are in A. See what I mean?

For a B chanter:

Written note: low D
Note which sounds: B
so . . . for a written C, the instrument plays an A . . . so some folks outside the Irish tradition would call B pipes “A pipes,” because of that relationship between what’s on the page and what plays.

Confused?

:wink:

Stuart

I am not sure who’s confused here, strictly speaking all concert pitch pipes are in D and the rest are flat sets in the usual teriminology. Which was not what you were saying or was it.
The concert pitch pipes play in D; bell note D drones D, written D=played D
C pipes play in C; bell note C drones C written D=played C

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-05-12 10:23 ]

My post, btw, oversimplified the physics of music-making; it’s obviously possible for other factors to affect the tone output, witness guitar where equal length strings generate different tones… but on dulcimer, piano, and harp, string length determines tone. (Presumably tension and thickness have an effect too…)

As for the Ocarina, it’s very weird in that it’s not a tube, it’s a globe, so the physics of other blown instruments don’t apply. I’m not sure what physics -do- apply.

Really, at this point the only physics of music I have a good grasp on are those of the flute, and by extension, other tube-type musical instruments, for which length is the overridingly determining factor… taper, bore diameter, etc., have only minor effects on the total tone. Clearly this is not as true of some other instruments. (Though I -suspect- that the tension on guitar strings is selecting an overtone, and not changing the fundamental tone of the string length, but I don’t know yet… physics of music type books are on my next library-visit list.)

As for what key which transposing instruments are actually in, I don’t even want to think about it. Everything should be in D. :wink:


–Chris

On 2002-05-12 23:02, ChrisA wrote:
Everything should be in D. > :wink:


–Chris

I beg to differ, espesially the pipes should be in anything BUT D

I think we would call a flute pitched like a high D whistle, a fife. For example, the Sweetheart folk fifes.

Mel Bay sells a fife, tuned like a C whistle, with a side blown fipple, under the trade name Melody Flute. I think their intent is to use it much as the recorder has been used (or abused, as the case may be) in elementary music education. That would be a step in the right direction toward teaching tin whistle in school. :sunglasses:

In any event, it is very easy to come across the information (without having to conduct all of these tests --just look it up) that the usual D flute is the same pitch as the low D whistle, and not the high D.

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-05-13 06:44 ]

On 2002-05-11 15:06, csharpd wrote:

ChrisA and others,

You are right, and I was wrong, about what octave the high-D whistle is in. …

My hat off to you, csharpd: It’s not easy to write a line like that. Keep whistling! :slight_smile:

Well, guys, I am in shock. You have opened my eyes. I have a piano and I have checked my whistles against it many times, for tuning purposes, etc. I could have sworn (until now) that the regular D whistle was played exactly as the music is written. I didn’t know that the music is written one octave lower than the whistle actually plays! Coming from a piano background, the notes on the page are the exact note you play on the piano. So I naturally assumed the whistle was the same. It shows a D above middle C, so I THOUGHT that what I play on the whistle was exactly that.

But now I find that is not true. I went downstairs and tried it–it’s true–the whistle is an octave higher than I have thought this entire past year. And the music is written one octave lower than it’s actually played. I never knew this! It will take some mind-adjustments. Weird!!

So, thanks (I guess) for opening my eyes. This forum certainly is educational!

A very “dazed & confused” :slight_smile: Cees

Being Dazed aint so bad, Cees!!!:slight_smile: :sunglasses:</

Its nice to have some company!!!

On 2002-05-12 23:02, ChrisA wrote:
My post, btw, oversimplified the physics of music-making; it’s obviously possible for other factors to affect the tone output, witness guitar where equal length strings generate different tones… but on dulcimer, piano, and harp, string length determines tone. (Presumably tension and thickness have an effect too…)

Actually the string gauge has as great an effect on the pitch as the length. In the piano and harp and most hammered dulcimers, there are different string gauges so that the instruments don’t have to be incredibly long, and the tension can remain reasonably constant. (If the high-C on a five-octave harp was 4" long, the lowest string would have to be 21 feet long if the strings were all the same gauge).

As for the Ocarina, it’s very weird in that it’s not a tube, it’s a globe, so the physics of other blown instruments don’t apply. I’m not sure what physics -do- apply.

I’m not sure about ocarinas either. I would have thought they’d behave like closed organ pipes, but they don’t, at least not exactly. The organ pipe has a frequency determined primarily by the length, and they allow multiple harmonics, ie, can be blown into a higher octave. The ocarina can’t be blown into a higher register, plus the note depends largely on the diameter of the instrument, and the pitch is changed mostly by the area of the tone holes that are opened, not on their positions.

Does anyone know how these babies work?

Charlie

On 2002-05-11 19:11, jim stone wrote:
Anyway, I started on whistle;now
I’m learning flute. Apples, oranges,
I reckon. But I wonder how the
low D whistle, a good one, compares
with a low D celtic flute?

Are they more or less interchangeable?

Tony Dixon in fact makes a dual head combo that lets you switch between a low D whistle head and a flute head.
In my experience FWIW, it is easier to get different tonal textures, (i.e. raspy vs. sweet & pure,) and better control over dynamics, from a flute.
For instance, I tried a Silkstone Low D at the Whistleshop that had a wonderfully “reedy” tone. But, there was no way to change that tone - it was going to play reedy whether you were playing jigs or lullabys. My Copley flute, can play with a reedy tone, or with a clear, purer tone, depending on my embouchure.
However, you pay a price for those added tones - you spend hours (years!)developing your embouchure so that you can control when you get those tones. (And I ain’t there yet!!)

On 2002-05-13 06:41, Walden wrote:
I think we would call a flute pitched like a high D whistle, a fife. For example, the Sweetheart folk fifes.

This took me some time to figure out… in modern parlance, a fife is a side-blown flute tuned to the first and second overtones, so that it plays, essentially, an octave higher than you’d expect for the length.

The piccollo is a side-blown flute which is in the same lengths and pitches as the ‘high’ whistles.

However… what a modern musician would call a ‘piccollo’, is often labeled as a ‘fife’ in ‘old-style’ instruments, like the SweetHeart ‘Rennaissance Fife’, which is just a short sideblown flute, meant to be played in the fundamental and first overtones…

In conclusion, call them what you want 'cause they’ve apparently been called all kinds of things over the centuries (many of these things are not printable, especially in the earlier stages of learning…) but be ready to clarify. :wink:

–ChrisA

A piccolo and a fife aren’t the same size, but mostly (in everyday use) its called a piccolo if its keyed. Of course many 6-hole flutemakers offer a keyless piccolo, I’m just talking generalities.

I have a wonderful high-pitched Chinese dizi in C (in Chinese terms F, as they don’t go by bell note). I played a carol on it in church, at Christmastime, and someone mistook the long, banded, bamboo instrument for a croquet mallet, till they heard its beautiful music.

As for the acoustics of the ocarina, Grove’s Dictionary of Music (found in every local library I know of, and I’m not in a metropolis), gives some explanation of it. I think it has diagrammes.

Where’s a musicologist when you need one? I’m not one, but here’s my two cents worth any way.

Plucked (or hammered) stings are not simple wave tones. As a example pluck a guitar string 1" from the bridge and then pluck it in the center of the string. The difference is in the domainance of the primary tone wave and its various harmonics. You can eliminate the primary tone completely and leave only the harmonics by lightly touching the string on the 12th fret which is the center point of the string, the plucked string now has a its secondary tone as dominant, one octave higher than primary tone. If you pluck the string 1/4 of the way up, with your finger still holding the string motionless above the 12 fret (half way point) you get sound were the secondary harmonic is so dominant that you can barely hear the other harmonics. It give a chiming type of tone. This works on any plucked string or hammered string.

I’ve been playing a twelve string guitar, off and on, for over 20 years. I became familiar with these harmonics because the 12 string has it first 4 pairs of strings tuned an octave apart. Prior to electronic tuners, it used to take me 30-45 minutes to tune the thing up using a tuning fork. I’d work my way across the strings matching fretted string to the next higher string; and then, I’d check all the matching harmonics.

I still have an E tuning fork. I took it out to use to test. It matches the high E string on my guitar, and the first octave e on a regulard-d whistle, and the second octave E on a low-D whistle. On a guitar this high E-string is the 2nd E above middle C. This would lead me to believe that the bell tone on the low/tenor-D is the D above middle-C, the D on a regular/soprano-D is the 2nd D above middle C.

I confirmed this by playing the 3rd string of the guitar first open and then with the 12fret harmonic. The bell tone of my regular D whistle matches the harmonic much better than the open string. This string is the D above middle C.

Well that’s my two cents. Any one with an osciliscope that can give us more data?

High or not, it still about how you …

\


Enjoy Your Music,

Lee Marsh

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-05-14 01:30 ]

Here is the physics; speed of sound = wave length times frequency.
For middle C frequency is 440 beats per sec (oops didn’t check that just remembered) speed of sound is 331 metres per sec. 331/440 is 0.75 as near as damnit so that’s your tube length for middle C. D is not far off and that means our low D’s are above middle C.

Brian

I can’t move my tuner (computer) close enough to the piano to get a number, but the bell note on a soprano D whistle is 587.3 Hz.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Lee Marsh is right. The piano is very rich in harmonic (and non-harmonic) overtones. The strongest overtone in a sustained tone is the 2nd harmonic, which is an octave above the note being played. So, for example, when you strike the D above middle C key, you are also hearing, perhaps without realizing it, the D an octave up, which is the pitch of the bell note on a soprano D whistle. This can trick the ear into “hearing” the whistle and piano notes as having the same pitch.

About the accordion thing…it’s my understanding(someone correct me if I’m wrong) that accordions generally have two to four reeds for every note. Each reed is tuned in a different octave(an effort to create artificial harmonics, I guess?); I think(but I’m not absolutely 100% sure) that usually at least one of the reed sets are tuned an octave below the normal middle C octave that a concertina is tuned in. So I think this should explain, Chris, why concertinas sound liked they could be tuned an octave up to you(they’re not).