Hi all,
I suppose that the subject says most of the point of this post. What is your (the reader’s)personal opinion; is a whistle better for Irish music, or a flute? Or are they both about the same? Or don’t you care? (Oh, yeah, I forgot that I’m sending this to a big group of people that all have WhOA…)
Anyhoo, awaiting comments!
kitty
Technically, a whistle is a type of flute…
I don’t know… for me it’s harder to play fast jigs on the flute, because it’s not as crisp an instrument as the whistle. I like playing slow airs and laments and stuff on the flute. It’s fun to play slow stuff on whistles now and then, but I have a hard time doing that because I don’t have a low whistle. Good luck!
Hmmmm…people who overhear me play my whistle ask, “what kind of flute were you playing?” or “that’s a pretty flute.” Maybe the only difference is that one instrument plays an octave or so higher than the other and is end-blown.
Kitty: I had a fairly good collection of Irish tunes to play on my flute before I even gave a thought to buying a whistle. I had to injure my wrist pretty severely (couldn’t even hold the flute) after which I acquired my first (of many many) whistles. For me, the difference is amazing! I LOVE these whistles ~ I can’t believe I hadn’t ever picked one up before! The tunes are pretty, lively, amazingly fun to play on the whistle, I like its funky little sounds, the breath support that comes with being a flutist makes jumping octaves on the whistle a breeze. I always play the whistle for fun now, when I want to relax and kick back. I am compelled to learn to play my flute competently and well, but I’m irresistably drawn to my whistle collection for the pure pleasure it brings me. Plus, it could just be my opinion, and my flute playing isn’t that great, but I think the Irish tunes sound a whole lot better on the whistle. But don’t just take my word for it, why not spring for a cheap whistle and try it out for your own self! Just call me:
Mary “Wish-I-Was-A-Better-Flutist” Vollmert
I don’t think that one is any better than the other-- it all comes down to personal preference. They feel very different to play and the sound is different. While I love both my whistles and my flute, I prefer the sound and feel of the flute, but that’s just me.
To me, the sound of the flute evokes a different mood than the sound of a whistle does. To me the whistle sounds more carefree, even when playing sad tunes. The flute to me sounds more deliberate and serious even when playing a very upbeat tune. Kind of like the difference between the songs of a warbler and a dove.
Present day Irish music evolved with both flute and whistle players, so there isn’t a contest between them.
Traditionally the whistle was the starters instrument [it still is to an extend]with players good enough ‘moving up’ to the flute as soon as they were well able ‘to fill it’.
[and are we all understand ‘the flute’ of the timber simple system non boehm variety?]. In a way understandable, the flute had more volume than the old whistles and that is definitely a pro when playing unamplyfied for a group of dancers.
To a degree this situation remains until this day, many extremely fine whistle players I know will play the flute ‘out’ even when admitting actually preferring the whistle to the flute.
I think the both have their own place and charm although there is hardly anything to beat a good flute/fiddle duet.
I think I have to disagree with the idea that the whistle is an inherently ‘happier’ instrument than the flute; I think, actually, that when in one of the minor-like modes, the higher pitch actually helps the plaintive/lost-soul feel of certain slow airs… on the whistle the sorrow is being keened aloud, whereas on the flute it is being whispered softly. Or maybe I just play the whistle better than the flute…
Anyway, I think the most important thing about whistle is that it -is- an octave higher than flute… personally, I think it makes much more sense for a beginner to come to session with a flute and an expert to come with a whistle, 'cause that whistle is going to cut right through the music… it may be ‘low volume’ but those high octaves are very penetrating, -and- the whistle is the only upper octave instrument I’ve seen people play Irish music on, unless maybe the concertina is in the same octave?
It seems to me that concertina is an octave above button accordian, but it also seems to me that both are below whistle and matched with flute, so maybe they just have different tones.
Err, so, to answer the original question, they’re both great. 
I do wish more experts players would stay with the whistle, though; it doesn’t help the whistle’s reputation if everyone switches to flute as soon as they get ‘good enough’ to leave the whistle. 
Leaving for uillean pipes is another thing altogether though; we need more of those, many more, enough that when people say ‘pipes’ without modifiers they mean uillean, not highland… (Not that I think that that the highland pipes sound like an wasps nest combined with a foghorn and the uillean pipes like a rich melody instrument, no… I just… uh… gotta go!)
This rambling brought to you by,
–Chris
I try and give about equal time to my flute and whistle playing in sessions. For me, the flute is the most physically demanding instrument I play, even more so than the Uilleann pipes. I can generally play faster and more precisely on the whistle than the flute, I’ll flow back and forth between the two instruments based on how my hands and lungs are doing and the selection of tunes being played.
I believe, like many of the posters above, that both the whistle and flute both good for Irish music (in the sense that you can play equally good IR-trad on both instruments). Its quite a subjective question and largely up to you which one you prefer.
The flute is more versatile dynamics and tone-wise. However, if you are a beginner to both instruments and want to play Irish music quickly, I would do the whistle, and maybe do the flute later if you choose so. The whistle is easy to get a tone of, doesn’t need that much air and etc. You’ll get to learning the basics of the music straight away rather than worry about your embouchure, your breath capacity, tone sustanance, and a whole lot of other things that interfere with your playing of the tune. I’m speaking from personal experience - lamenting the time I spend working on these things on flute rather than working on playing tunes and etc.
On 2002-05-09 15:25, ChrisA wrote:
Anyway, I think the most important thing about whistle is that it -is- an octave higher than flute…
It seems to me that concertina is an octave above button accordian, but it also seems to me that both are below whistle and matched with flute, so maybe they just have different tones.
It seem to me that all the instruments named above, flute and whistle included, are (normally) in the same octave. (But see “Accordion Exception,” below).
The lowest note on a normal (high) D whistle is the D above Middle C on the piano. The same is true for a D flute.
Concertina and button accordion can go down about another half-octave or so, depending on the instrument. My English concertina extends to the G below middle C – the same as a fiddle. My C sharp/D button accordion goes down to F# below middle C. Now, while these instruments have a lower range than flute or whistle, the majority of Irish tunes don’t go below the D above middle C. Hence, all of these instruments are usually playing in the same range – i.e., the two octaves starting at D above middle C and going up from there.
ChrisA, you had it right when you wrote “maybe they just have different tones.” The whistle is, to my ears, more penetrating than the flute, even though it’s playing in the same octave. I think you’re confusing the mellower quality of the flute with a lower octave.
Accordion Exception: Button accordions usually have at least two sets of reeds on the treble (right-hand) side; some have three or even four sets of reeds. The basic two reeds play in the same range as flute, whistle, etc. With a three-reed accordion you have the option of adding into the tonal mix a third reed, tuned an octave below the customary two reeds. So it’s possible to hear notes in two octaves from a single button. In my experience, though, contemporary Irish box players most often use just the two middle reeds.
Csharpd, the whistle most certainly is an octave above the flute. A quick look at the things should tell you that, even if you can’t hear the difference!
On 2002-05-10 15:05, csharpd wrote:
The lowest note on a normal (high) D whistle is the D above Middle C on the piano. The same is true for a D flute.
I believe the D on a high-D whistle is an octave above the D above Middle C on a piano. Low D whistle and D flute have the same bell note (which makes sense because they’re about the same size).
On 2002-05-10 15:13, Bloomfield wrote:
I believe the D on a high-D whistle is an octave above the D above Middle C on a piano. Low D whistle and D flute have the same bell note (which makes sense because they’re about the same size).
Allow me to suggest two experiments, if you have a piano handy:
(1) play the bell note of a high-D whistle, then play the D above middle C on the piano, and the D above that. To my ear, the first piano note better matches the whistle’s bell note.
(2) Play the high D on the piano (i.e. one octave plus one note above middle C). Now go two octaves up from there, simulating the range of a whistle. Do you hear the whistle playing up that high? I don’t.
Let’s see what some other sources have to say about the range of the high-D whistle and the flute:
From the Whistle Shop’s tutorial, at http://www.thewhistleshop.com/beginners/tutor/tutor.htm:
“All whistles are capable of playing a two octave range. For instance, a ‘D’ whistle’s lowest note is D (the note above middle C on a piano).”
From Wikipedia, the free on-line encyclopedia, at http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/tin+whistle (whose editor-in-chief, by the way, is a serious American student of Irish music):
"The standard range of the whistle is from the D above middle C, to the D two octaves above middle C.
From Chiff & Fipple’s Low Whistle Guide:
“Low whistles are those that are pitched in keys below the A below middle C.” [I read this to mean that high whistles are those with bell notes in the octave starting at A below middle C and heading up from there.]
Finally, on the subject of flutes’ range, this is from http://www.woodenflute.com:
“The basic Irish flute is a simple system six hole flute tuned such that the lowest playable pitch (all holes closed) is the D above middle C.”
[ This Message was edited by: csharpd on 2002-05-10 16:44 ]
With absolutely no references to back this up, I have to say that my ear, and my basic understanding of physics, tell me that a high D whistle has got to play an octave higher than a D flute.
On 2002-05-10 16:42, csharpd wrote:
On 2002-05-10 15:13, Bloomfield wrote:
I believe the D on a high-D whistle is an octave above the D above Middle C on a piano. Low D whistle and D flute have the same bell note (which makes sense because they’re about the same size).Allow me to suggest two experiments, if you have a piano handy:
I seem to have misplaced it, just at the moment. I won’t bet any money on where the Middle C is on the piano, but am willing to bet whatever reputation joining chiff & fipple has left me on the assertion that (high) D whistle is an octave above a D flute. Please don’t list any more evidence to the contrary. 
This is absurd. Get a regular D whistle-not a low D. Get a flute. Play the lowest note on each. If you can’t tell that the lowest D on the whistle is an octave above the lowest D on the flute then maybe music isn’t for you.
Steve
Fundamental pitch is determined primarily by the length of the source of the wave-form, whether the waveform in a breath instrument determined by the tube the air travels in (roughly speaking… the pressurized air actually extends out a little bit in certain cases); anyway, lay a D flute next to a Low-D whistle and you will find that they are the same length, hence the same fundamental pitch.
I have been told that this fundamental pitch is the D above middle C, but I’ve not taken apart a piano to measure the string at middle C and my digital tuner does not declare octave, so, whatever.
The high-D whistle, however, is remarkably shorter than the low-D whistle, by about half, which doubles the frequency of the waveforms within, which puts it up more or less exactly an octave.
So, the only way that the D-flute and the high-D-whistle are the same is if the D-flute is normally played in the first and second set of overtones rather than in the fundamental tones and first set of overtones… I think any experimentation at all, checking with any maker, etc., will quickly reveal that this is not the case.
Therefore, a high-D whistle plays one octave higher than a flute or a low-D whistle.
Now, whether a high-D whistle plays D-above-middle-C or D-above-C-above-middle-C is really irrelevant. If it plays D-above-middle-C then flutes play D-below-middle-C, if it plays D-above-C-above-middle-C (which I believe is the case) then flutes play D-above middle-C.
Some confusion comes from the fact that we essentially treat whistles as one-octave transposing instruments, that is, we read music as if we could play from D above middle C and up two octaves, effectively transposing all music up an octave. (The other choice being to not play notes in the first octave, play notes in the second octave in the whistle’s first octave, etc., which is what classical musicians do… but they have other instruments filling the gaps…)
So, we -say- that the whistle runs from D above middle C and up two octaves, because that’s how we read music for it, but in absolute pitch, it’s an octave up.
Or, possibly, but I don’t think so, every other irish instrument is an octave low (mandolin, flute, low whistle, fiddle, uillean pipes, … )
Which brings me back around to wondering whether the concertina differs in pitch from the button accordian, but I guess I’ve inferred that the answer is dependent on the reeds in it, but that answer makes me wonder what kind of musical principles they work on. Anyone have a broken buttonbox I can dissect?
–Chris
EditPS: The idea of playing in the first two sets of overtones, btw, is not absurd. The Bb military-style fife is played this way, and has in-tune first and second overtones with the fundamentals weak and out of tune, as opposed to flutes and whistles which have in-tune fundamentals and first set of overtones…
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisA on 2002-05-10 18:03 ]
On 2002-05-10 17:58, ChrisA wrote:
I have been told that this fundamental pitch is the D above middle C, but I’ve not taken apart a piano to measure the string at middle C …
[…]
Some confusion comes from the fact that we essentially treat whistles as one-octave transposing instruments, that is, we read music as if we could play from D above middle C and up two octaves, effectively transposing all music up an octave.
[…]
Which brings me back around to wondering whether the concertina differs in pitch from the button accordian, but I guess I’ve inferred that the answer is dependent on the reeds in it, but that answer makes me wonder what kind of musical principles they work on.
ChrisA and others,
You are right, and I was wrong, about what octave the high-D whistle is in. I convinced myself of this by doing some more experimentation with the piano, and also recording some notes and analyzing them in Transcribe! software. (This is very cool: It gives you a graphic analysis overlaid on an image of a piano keyboard. See http://www.seventhstring.demon.co.uk/ )
Interestingly, I asked my teenage daughter, who is a fairly accomplished pianist, to listen to the bell note on a high-D and tell me what note on the piano it corresponded to. Without a moment’s hesitation – and without touching the piano keyboard – she said, “That’s D above middle C.” I prodded her to listen some more to both sets of Ds on both instruments. After further listening, she agreed that her initial impression was wrong. (“That’s really weird!,” she added.)
In a previous post I quoted several knowledgeable people (including Dale and Thom Larson) who all wrote as if they believed the bell note of a high whistle is in the middle-C octave (or just below, in the case of a Bb or A). I can’t resist quoting one more. L.E. McCullough, in The Complete Irish Whistle Tutor, wrote the following in reference to the Clarke’s Traditional C whistle:
“The Clarke is pitched a whole tone below concert pitch, with the bottom note giving middle C.” (page 9, 1987 edition)
Leaving aside his weird use of “concert pitch,” I think it’s clear L.E. believed he was playing middle C on the bell note of his Clarke Traditional, rather than reading the notation for middle C and playing a sound an octave higher. I don’t see anything else in his writing – nor in anyone else’s, for that matter – acknowledging that the high whistle plays an octave higher than the way the music is usually written.
My conclusion is that there’s something in the whistle’s character (or timbre) that fools us (OK, some of us!) as to which octave it’s playing in. Maybe we’ve been brainswashed by reading music that has been transposed down an octave.
One implication that I find surprising is that a low-D whistle, with a bell note at D one step above middle C, cannot play as low as a fiddle, which goes down to G below middle C. Somehow the timbre of the low whistle gives us (some of us!) the illusion that it’s playing lower.
Addressing some other points: I wasn’t initially convinced by the size argument (a high-D whistle is half the size of a flute) because there have to be additional factors besides size alone at work. Judging by size alone, you’d think an ocarina would play up in the ultrasonic range. And the string that plays D above middle C on a piano is much longer than, say, the D string on a fiddle.
As for accordions and concertinas: they are both “free-reed” instruments, meaning that they produce sound by the vibration of a tongue-like metal reed in a frame. Yet the reeds of an English-made concertina are much smaller than the reeds that play the same note (in the same octave) on an accordion. An exception is the Italian-made concertinas, such as the Stagi brand, that use accordion reeds. That’s why those concertinas are larger than their English-made cousins.