I would like to have some opinions on “Extreme Whistles/Woodwinds”
I believe sessions would be better rounded if instruments of extreme keys would fill in for rich sound. Contrabass Recorders and Garklein Recorders like these…
…were made well and were easy to play. Why are they so hard to find and expensive? Well made extreme keys have wonderful rich sounds. Would you play them if you could find reasonable prices and high quality?
These were quite popular in other eras, why not now?
I believe sessions would be better rounded if instruments of extreme keys would fill in for rich sound.
I don’t believe that this would be an objective of any traditional session I have been part of. I think a session is more about folks sharing tunes, playing the melody with the variations that different players and instruments bring to the room and giving best effort around the shape of the melody and the rhythm. It’s about the tune not the arrangement.
Depending on the instruments present there can be a wide range of registers - with boxes and pipes filling in the bottom and going up through the high whistle.
This is a “Challange” I put to all Woodwind Luthiers. Expand your market!!!
Several whistle makers have already offered whistles at the extreme range, at least the range from low low A up to D above high D. I don’t know that great numbers of these have been purchased. The high D whistle is the cornerstone of the market. I make the other keys for the musicians accompanying singers. That’s what I see in my corner of the world. Pipes or flute might be a better product line expansion for a whistle maker.
I have a low low D in my shop which I am not in a hurry to finish because I won’t be able to play it. It will be a working whistle but used as more of an attention getter at festivals if I am selling whistles.
Does anyone here have experience with basses, contrabasses and garkleins playing jigs and reels at dance tempo?
That’s just my opinion. I am sure others will add their thinking.
I’ve seen the Amsterdam Loeki Stardust Quartet play these, and they sounded terrific:
The keys make a cool flappy noise and in fact one of the pieces featured these flappy sounds played without the player(s) actually blowing the recorder.
Well, looking into the question about what would happen if these instruments were widely available and affordable today, I have the sense that such extreme instruments were never all that readily available nor were they ever affordably priced for the average musician. Indeed, part of the allure of the extreme instruments of other eras is that they are so unusual. The antiques market is not exactly overflowing with ultra-contra-bass recorders, for instance.
I believe that in their day, such instruments were likely commissioned by the wealthy patrons of music; noblemen or even royal courts. They were probably not owned by an individual musician any more than a pipe organ with a seven-figure price tag is owned by an individual today. There are exceptions of course, but today such instruments are usually owned by an organization of some sort. Just as many of these unusual instruments and reproductions of strange variations on familiar instruments are offered as historical oddities and curiousities today, in their time the originals may well have come about as extreme luxury items to add to the prestige of the patron.
I don’t know, but strongly suspect that as the music we enjoy today evolved, instruments of this nature fell from favor not because of their contribution to the quality of music, but simply as a matter of economy. The music, having evolved as it has, no longer has a place for these extreme examples, their roles being filled in other ways. Re-introducing them would be a fascinating exercise certainly, but probably impractical at the very least. Just as ladies of today would not much like elaborate hairstyles with caged birds on their heads or dresses wider than a barn door, I doubt too many players would want an eight-foot recorder.
I’m not an authority on music history, but that’s my best guess and two cents worth.
Hi Paul (and others)!
I have always been a fan of the Paetzold sub contrabass recorders, amazingly expressive instruments.
Here are two video clips of Göran Månsson (brilliant flute, whistle and recorder player) on the Paetzold sub contrabass.
I´m not saying you´re wrong but i know lots of people with expensive sound systems or musical instruments today. For example: Grand pianos, HiFi and video equipment, Rock band PA-systems (including expensive instruments), etc… And these people are not professionals. If I would sum up what I have spent on music over the years (CD´s, litterature, musical instruments, concert tickets, education) it would probably be $15000 or so and I not particularly well off… I think that if you have a strong interest in something you will always find the means!
Oh, I think you’re certianly right. Indeed, if any of us were to add up all that we’ve spent over the years we’d probably be surprised at the number!
I was thinking more in terms of the hey day of the recorder when there would have been a greater desire to build such unusual and specialized things. Many of these unusually large recorders come from historical periods when average people didn’t normally have much disposable income and music on a grand scale tended to be in the hands of wealthy patrons and the Church. Even today I suspect that owning something like that sub-contrabass recorder would be more than the vast majority of us could hope for reasonably. Consider how many of us have to save up for a Copeland whistle. And of couse if few could own them, few would be made, and so on. Hence the rarity of these sort of things. That was my poorly made point. I was exploring the question of why these aren’t commonplace today. I simply think that they were never commonplace because of the difficulty of producing them and the cost of owning them.
But when we consider modern materials and manufacturing, such as the Jubilee bass whistle, things change significantly. I’m seriously considering one of those!!
Like I said, I’m no expert, but I do think these topics are interesting. This is a fascinating subject for me. Thanks to Thomas for posting those links.
Yes Marcus, that’s quite true. I was thinking more of the recorder shown in the first photo, the one that seems to be ten feet tall, turned and bored. The others appear to be contructed as a rectangular box, a technique commonly used in pipe organs to make their manufacture practical. I doubt that the turned/bored instrument costs as much as a set of pipes. And my point is also about availability and rarity. A set of uilleann pipes, even if expensive, can be more available because they use smaller pieces of wood and manufacturing methods similar to flutes. I would think that just finding the right tree to make that sub-contra recorder from would be a trick! After all, we really don’t see those everywhere we go. The point of the Paetzold recorders and the Jubilee bass whistles is to use manufacturing methods and materials that make them affordable and available, and I think that actually answers Thomas’ one question: In elder ages, extreme instruments of traditional design were difficult to produce and terribly expensive. In the modern age, alternative designs have changed this for the better.
The question that remains is, since these extreme instruments can be had today (in one form or another) at reasonable cost, why don’t they show up in sessions everywhere? I think the short answer there is simply that the music itself had evolved away from such instruments given their cost and availablity. Perhaps now it will evolve in another direction? Who knows. But wouldn’t it be a kick to be able to come back in a hundred years to see what’s become of it all?
I actually agree with you Tim, price (and waiting time) is definately an issue. I know pipers that never bring their full sets to a session, only for gigs and solo playing. Instead they use an older half set or even a practice set in the Pub.
But I think the main reason has to do with the conservatism of the players in any type of traditional music.
It’s not that easy to change the tradition
There was a time when some well known musicians (Steve Cooney for one) included the didgeridoo in ITM performances but I don’t think it ever was accepted in a session setting. I have even been to a session that abruptly ended when someone pulled a didge out of the bag.
Trad Swedish music is the same, prior to Ale Möller (early 80’s) a bouzouki would be almost unthinkable, now they are as common as a keyed fiddle or hurdy-gurdy.
Oh, and too, I think some of it has to do with the practicality of the instrument. If I were running away from an angry crowd I’d rather carry that three-inch tabor pipe than that ten-foot recorder!!
I´ve been thinking some more about your interesting question. I think the answer is very simple. The “eight-foot recorder” and similar instrument were probably used mostly by professional musicians employed by a king or a nobleman. Today there are similar instruments that are mainly owned by professionals. For example: a contrabass bassoon (probably $20,000] or more) or a PA-system large enough to fill an arena ($1,000,000 or more??? I don´t know at all), or a concert violin (a Strad perhaps $1,000,000 or more). But even a young rock band just playing clubs have to invest quite heavily in their instruments and sound system.
There are also instruments that are very scarcely used by the symphony orchestras, hence very expensive for example: the Aida trumpet, the Wagner tuba, the bass flute, the piccola trumpet, celesta, etc.
I thank all of you for your input and opinions. The chiffandfipple group is diverse and all of your opinions are important to me.(Tim wins the cookie for best answer so far )
One example of “Cheap” but practical application is PVC. A PVC Contrabass Recorder in massive size can be made extremely cheap and modern paints (Krylon) can be used for a rainbow of colors now. If this instrument (and others) were made available to high school kids for band practice, I believe there would be more “symphony” classes vs band classes. This extends to instruments such as Hurdy-Gurdys and other wonderful-but-expensive types.
Sessions? Half the instruments used in sessions now are NOT traditional (Bouzoukis, Banjos, Squeeze Boxes and even the Fiddle!). Musical styles must progress or they become stagnant. Many of the “Classics” were composed for Renaissance Instruments that are out of use today and modern instruments “fill in” because of the lack of availability.
I, for one, would like to see a “Renaissance” of the older (acoustically improved of course) instruments made with modern cheap-but-practical materials such as PVC, Delrin, Pyrex Glass and Carbon Fiber. These “man made” materials can compete wonderfully with rare endangered hardwoods, both in acoustics and esthetics.
One example of an “improved” Renaisance instrument would be a Bass Recorder with a nodal restricted “throat” near the voicing/embouchure for much improved acoustics. This instrument was put aside because of poor performance/weak tone. The suggested acoustic improvement triples the performance of this instrument.
Example#2, The Ocarina is thought of as a kids toy for its limited range and lack of accuracy. Modern Chinese Ocarinas have triple chambers and voicings that play notes more accurate than a concert flute with greater range!
)