Ethnic Scales & Whacky Tooters...Newbie Seeks Guidance.

World/Folk Flutes & Winds
1

Greetings players of whacky tooters,

I am an aficianado of irish whistles and flutes. I’ve played and enjoyed a few Native American flutes but am wildly allergic to cedar and redwood so I never keep one when they come through the store (some day I’ll get one made of something else :slight_smile: ).

I recently got a Reyburn whistle in the key of Am and am absolutely crazy about the thing.

The “whacky tooter” bug has bitten me and I’d very much like to learn more about them and acquire some nice ones.

So, couple of questions:

  • Is there a website someplace that sort of gives a rundown of the different ethnic/world flutes all in one place?

Who are good makers of some of these instruments (I’m just not willing to take my chances on eBay with my complete lack of knowledge on the subject).

Is there a good website that talks about different ethnic scales?

I’ll be spending more time lurking here and see what I can learn as well. :slight_smile:

Thanks much,

Doc

PS: If anybody has a nice ethnic something-or-other they’d like to swap for something “Irish” from the store I’d be happy to consider. :slight_smile:

2

Doc, what’s the actual scale of the whistle? Does it have the only the flattened 3rd (F-nat equivalent), or the flattened 6th (Bb equivalent) as well? In other words, does it play an ascending melodic minor scale or a harmonic minor scale?

I’ve taped up whistles both ways, and they’re interesting to play with, e.g., for D Dorian and G Dorian tunes, respectively (both using C-nat).

I don’t think of these as particularly exotic, since both layouts still follow the normal diatonic scale structure - the first plays C major, the second F major. Though the choice of alternating C/C# can introduce some wackiness. :slight_smile: It’s when you break the diatonic pattern that things get exotic - scales based on degrees of the harmonic minor, or maqams with quarter tones, etc.

Here’s a quick reference list of various “exotic” scales:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/exotic-scales.txt

If you really want to freak out on scale madness, get Slonimsky. :wink:
http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231622599&sr=1-1

3

I still have a Boehm flute…

go ahead make it difficult :smiley:

4

David Bingamon makes an Ahava-Rabba scale whistle. Also, harmonic and melodic minor whistles.

5

MY Dear Doc,
As I have pointed out extensively in several topics in these forums the follwoing scales are played by various ethnic groups and they are EASILY playable on an unkeyed Irish D flute or whistle ( I will use ethnic indian names):-

with XXX XXX tonic
Bilaval Scale (India, Middle East, Europe including Irish and Scottish ethnicities) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

Khamaaj Scale with a cross fingering for C (as above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

with XXX XXO tonic
Kaafi Scale (India, Middle East, Europe including especially Irish and Greek ethnicities) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

Asaavri Scale with a cross fingering for C (India, Middle East, Europe and especially Mediterranean ethnicities)
- innumerable raags, tunes etc

with XXX XOO tonic
Bhairavi Scale (India, Middle East, Mediterranean and Eastern Europe including Flamenco) - innumerable raags, tunes etc


Bhavapriya Scale with a cross fingering for C (India and possibly others) - rare


with XXX OOO tonic
Kalyaan Scale (India, Middle East, some Mediterranean and Eastern Europe) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

Bilaval Scale with a cross fingering for C (see above)
- innumerable raags, tunes etc

with XXO OOO tonic
Khamaaj Scale (see above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

Kaafi Scale with a cross fingering for C (see above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc


with XOO OOO tonic
Asaavri Scale (see above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc

Bhairavi Scale with a cross fingering for C (see above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc


with OXX OOO (or other cross fingered) tonic
Maarwa Scale by including the C# and dropping the D (India and possibly others esp. Middle East)- many raags
Kalyaan Scale by dropping the C# (see above) - innumerable raags, tunes etc


with OOO OOO tonic
C# D E G A C C#+
the scale for hexatonic Raag Gurjari Todi

Then of course there are myriads of gapped scales with different sorts of pentatonics and hexatonics which you get by dropping one of more notes from any of the above.

Lets, for example take tonic XXX XXO the common Dorian tonic in ETHNIC Irish music:-
BY dropping the third interval we get hexatonic scale for Raag Shuddh Saarang which is also common in Irish melodies (eg Cliffs of Dooneen, O’Keefe’s Slide)
or by dropping the 6th note we get hexatonic scale for Raag Plasi and others which is also common in Irish and British Melodies (eg
ASh Plant reel - some versions, Mattie Groves,) also Delta Blues ..

and so it goes.

HEY! Its not like diatonic major tone holes are intrinsically non ethnic! :laughing:

6

For fun you can read up on the Willow Flute. Different style tuning.

7

Have a look here: http://www.worldflutesfestival.org/index.html
Check through the links you find in the drop-down menu underneath “Registration of Proposals” and the small pics of various flutes (menu with white text on dark background boxes).
(I wish there would be a better navigation than this multi-layer drop-down menu).
But there is good info including pics for perhaps most “world flutes”.

As for makers:
Best to visit the country and search for a flute maker. Many musicians make their own instruments.

As for scales:
We could try and airbrush scales in use into some “system”, but in truth there are differences from country to country and region to region. Some are getting lost by flute makers adopting western tuning mechanisms, like digital tuners. I guess a lot sold as “world flutes” is not authentic, but adapted to western taste. And probably for the worst for the local “ethnic” culture. (I don’t like the word “ethnic”, it smacks of cultural rape)

Cheers,
~Hans

8

PS: As an example for variations in scales concerning Arab music I read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_culture#Music:

The main difference between the western chromatic scale and the Arabic scales is the existence of many in-between notes, which are sometimes referred to as quarter tones for the sake of practicality. However, while in some treatments of theory the quarter tone scale or all twenty four tones should exist, according to Yūsuf Shawqī (1969) in practice there are many fewer tones (Touma 1996, p.170).

In fact, the situation is much more complicated than that. In 1932, at International Convention on Arabic music held in Cairo, Egypt (attended by such Western luminaries as Béla Bartók and Henry George Farmer), experiments were done which determined conclusively that the notes in actual use differ substantially from an even-tempered 24-tone scale, and furthermore that the intonation of many of those notes differ slightly from region to region (Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Iraq). The commission’s recommendation is as follows: "> The tempered scale and the natural scale should be rejected. In Egypt, the Egyptian scale is to be kept with the values, which were measured with all possible precision. The Turkish, Syrian, and Iraqi scales should remain what they are…> " (translated in Maalouf 2002, p. 220). Both in modern practice, and based on the evidence from recorded music over the course of the last century, there are several differently-tuned "E"s in between the E-flat and E-natural of the Western Chromatic scale, depending on the maqam or jins in use, and depending on the region.

(my emphasis)

I am sure this applies in similar ways to scales used in other cultures.

~Hans

9

Yes but a ready made scale specific flute isn’t going to resolve the issue of microtones.

I have explained this following point in detail in other topics all over the place here:-

Let us take, for example two separate raagas in the Aeolian Mode(natural minor scale). Let us compare them both with same keynote and lets say the keynote is B.

B Aeolian is B C# D E F# G A B.
You can get this on the Irish flute without cross fingerings as you all know.
Lets say someone makes an “ethnic flute” in the B Aeolian Mode so that instead of getting that mode from the T2 open hole you get it from XXX XXX.
The minor third (the D) in Raag Darbari is a tad flatter than the D in Raag Jaunpuri even though they are notionally in the same scale. This is do with microtonal differences in the articulations of the intervals and the deeper you get into the tradition the more vital these distinctions are.

See my point? You can’t just make a flute in some unique sacle and think its going to fulfil automatically the requirements of every piece of music in that scale for that tradition. The scale is a notional and convenient approximation. At best you wil be able to do POP renderings of the raags on that, not the real McCoy.

You see thats another reason, Hans, why on classical bansuri, things are mostly played from XXX OOO tonic. From here the natural minor scale will require 3 half holings (unlike the T2 open hole natural minor which requires none). This way the flautist can control the half holed shadings required for the different microtonal articulations of the minor third (or any other note).

10

Or at least cultural superiorty…

Funny that the new kid on the block (Equal temperament diatonic scales) would be presumed by anyone to be the “norm” while other systems which were around thousands of years earlier and are still played by millions more people are thought to be “fringey” and odd. Queen Victoria would be proud.

I really appreciate you guys and your information and insight…great stuff this.

Doc

11

Doc, I’m still curious to know how your whistle is actually tuned.

12

ya just move slide silly! :poke:

13

:laughing:

14

Ronaldo calls it a harmonic minor D

It plays the scale a C whistle plays if you started with xxxxxo

Doc

15

Hm. That would be either D Dorian (with c# fingering, actually concert B) or D Aeolian / natural minor (with c-nat fingering, actually concert Bb).

Harmonic minor would be: D E F G A Bb C# d

Which suggests that the B is, in fact, flatted on the whistle. On a C whistle you’d finger: E F# G A B c-nat e-flat e. Interesting.

16

Just re-checked..

It’s not the same as a C. Here’s a comparison. The h fingers are half holes.

C- - - - Reyburn Harmonic minor D
xxxxxo = xxxxxx
xxxxoo = xxxxxo
xxxooo = xxxxoo
xxoooo = xxxooo
xooooo = xxoooo
oooooo = hooooo
oxxooo = xooooo
oxxxxh = oxxooo
oxxxxx = oxxxox (this one sounds like th ecorrect “Cnat” fingering for this tooter)
xxxxxh = oooooo

Doc

17

OK, I think I got it. It’s a D whistle with a flattened 3rd (F-nat) and flattened 6th (B-flat). So the natural scale is D harmonic minor: D E F G A Bb c# d. If you substitute C-nat, you get D natural minor: D E F G A Bb c d.

You should also be able to play F major:

F xxxxoo
G xxxooo
A xxoooo
Bb xooooo
c oxxooo
d oxxxxx
e xxxxxo
f xxxxoo

And C Mixolydian

C (below range)
D xxxxxx
E xxxxxo
F xxxxoo
G xxxooo
A xxoooo
Bb xooooo
c oxxooo

And A Ahava Raba (e.g., Hava Nagila):

A xxoooo
Bb xooooo
c# oooooo
d oxxxxx
e xxxxxo
f xxxxoo
g xxxooo
a xxoooo

:thumbsup:

18

Very cool. Thanks John.

It’ll be nice to Hava Nagila. I don’t think I’ve ever had one before. Do they eat much? :stuck_out_tongue:

Doc

19

So if I take a D whistle and extend it with tape* to D♭, is there a mode that works with it?

Of course (being that I like the Bb fife, I tried it with a Bb fife, but modes are all the same with the intervals).

*I was wondering if the length affected the second and third registers the same or if they seemed ignored by the length of the tube in my experiment.

20

:confused: