Recently, I sent a quick email to a bunch of flute makers in which I asked for their opinion of boxwood against blackwood, and whether they’d recommend boxwood, and thanked them for their time (because I’m a nice guy).
Two of them, Terry McGee and Gilles Lehart, responded within a day with their views on the wood, for which I then sent a quicky reply to say thanks again. So far, so normal.
I got an email from another maker (who shall remain nameless) offering his opinion on suitability of boxwood. He then asked me if I was planning on buying a flute from him. I told him no, that I had a specific maker in mind and explained that I had asked several makers because I respected makers’ opinions, but that I wasn’t planning to buy a flute from him and I appreciated him taking the time to email me back.
This is what he then said.
“It would be more appropriate to let the makers know this beforehand. We have to earn a living after all and don’t earn anything by shelling out free advice”.
So the question is this. Was I out of order for asking a maker from whom I was not intending to buy a flute a general question about the suitability of boxwood as a material for a keyed flute? I don’t think so (otherwise I wouldn’t have done it). Terry McGee and Gilles Lehart obviously don’t either.
m.d.
I think perhaps you did cross the line just a bit. Depends on the attitude of the maker. It might have been better to have posted the question here on the Flute Board and let each maker volunteer an answer without any direct link to whether an order of one of their flutes will follow. I wonder what the top violin makers would think of the same situation.
Just my 2 cents. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal either way.
Ah sure we all feck up at times dont worry about it! I do agree with that maker in what he said. After all, Im sure there is a wealth of information pertaining to your query on-line with a bit of patience and trawling through forums! Did you tell Terry McGee and Gilles Lehart that you werent planning on buying from them?
No, you did nothing wrong. The maker is a tool. If it is his policy not to give out free advice, he should have made it clear at the outset and billed you for his consultation fee in advance. Of course, then he would likely screw himself out of the opportunity to give you his valuable sales pitch…
Well, the way I see it is this. If you’re sick, you see a Doctor. If your car doesn’t work, you see a mechanic. If you want advice about flute timber, you ask a flute maker. I wouldn’t dream of trawling the web because most of the people who opinionise about such matters on the web are guys like me - amateur flute players with internet access. I wanted the opinions of the guys who actually make the flutes every day.
I couldn’t have been more respectful, thanked them for their time etc. Perhaps Mr X just got out the wrong side of the bed.
The two guys who came back to me didn’t expect a sale from a simple email inquiry, and I have a lot more respect for them as a consequence. Mr X thinks I’m scum. I don’t much care, as I’m not after one of his flutes anyway.
m.d.
I was thinking more on ther lines of instrument makers forums, wood workers forums. etc. pipe makers forums etc offer lots of info about wood.just a google search took me here !! http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/unusual.htm
Fair play to you for asking from the source, but come on, how much time and effort did the guy put in to get his understanding and knowledge? you didnt answer my question ? did you tell the other guys, who did reply , that you had no intention of buying a flute from them?
yeah, the first mistake was exactly what that maker said. the second mistake is this thread about what he said. take the advice and be the wiser for it, don’t take it and remain sourpuss mr. nice guy.
In both of these cases, you’d have to pay for these services. I’d say your query was a minor infraction of manners - saying up front that you already had a maker in mind would have covered your bases.
“It would be more appropriate to let the makers know this beforehand. We have to earn a living after all and don’t earn anything by shelling out free advice”.
Fair response. A lot of these folks are very busy trying to fill orders, answering e mail takes time
and it would be better to make the situation clear in advance. Making flutes can be
pretty high pressure, in fact. Also the maker would understandably think you were
interested in buying one of his flutes and feel disappointed that you had
already chosen another maker. Bit unaware of you, no big deal.
I’m not a flute maker, but I do get asked quite often about one aspect or another of instrument making. Sometimes the person asking states right upfront that another builder is on the top of their list, sometimes not. But in either case, I try to answer each question as honestly and to the best of my ability as I can. Yes, it may not seem to make sense to provide information that will lead to the sale of an instrument made by someone else, but OTH, I know that somewhere down the road that same person may come back to me because of my previous help. That has happened on more than one occasion.
The only time I have gotten irritated was when I have had numerous emails back and forth with the same person discussing a wide range of subjects where the info I provided was used to create a specification list for another builder. IOW, when we design the entire instrument to best suit the customers needs and then they give the order to someone else. Fortunately that has happened only twice and I managed to refrain from letting my irritation show…though sending a deign invoice was very tempting
And in one case I did get the satisfaction of being able to forewarn another builder who is a good friend when I heard that one of these two had started asking him questions about a custom build. It kept him from wasting too much time.
Well, I think that Maker was a little crass in asking if you would be buying a Flute from him. You were honest and up front with him. I believe he or she would have been better served by offering you an opinion, I think that would take what 5 minutes to put together from his “valuable” time and then just saying let me know if I can make a Flute for you in the future. Not that I’m a maker , but I’m always willing to give someone my advice if they value it. This maker just sees you as a dollar sign or not… … I’d say screw him and never buy a Flute from him…just my 2 cents!
I dont think you crossed the line, I teach photography and photoshop at a very exclusive private college, my day job is commercial based photography which pays the bills and I get to travel a fair bit, I love teaching as it keeps my software skills up to speed in an ever changing world, I also enjoy helping out at schools and various clubs that need photoshop tuition usually free or charge, my take on it is if you have a skill that you enjoy that makes you money and you can free up some time to help others free of charge then go for it, if the flute makers that you asked for advice from are unhappy to help you out because
“It would be more appropriate to let the makers know this beforehand. We have to earn a living after all and don’t earn anything by shelling out free advice”.
then don’t buy a flute from them, the flutemaker that sent that response sounds incredibly anal to say the least, you were only asking for some info/advice on a particular wood, I have to quote on many jobs during the year, knowing full well that there are 2 or 3 other agencies after the same job, and in a lot of the cases the job has already gone to a recommended supplier, I still submit my quote and meet the client regardless because sometimes you have to just bite the bullet knowing full well your going through the motions, but you have to make sure people know what you do and that your still out there trading, regardless of getting the work or not and lets be honest any maker worth there salt would be happy to give info on a certain type of wood regardless of a sale or not, I love what I do and am happy to pass on any knowledge that might be of help to someone free of charge.
I’m with the flutemaker. Contacting him at work looking for free info to sell you someone else’s flute was obnoxious. Spamming many makers even more so. That’s the kind of question to post here, not to send to makers busy at their day jobs.
emmdee,
I am curious that you have quoted to us the response you found distasteful and not the ones you found helpful.
you have also concluded that because TM and GLH responded nicely that that means that they found your enquiry above reproach. Unproven assumption.
In any case you are trying to settle some sort of etiquette “line”. Perhaps there are as many “lines” as there are people. Why do you want to regiment the world with some absolute benchmark for courtesy?
Without adapatability and responsiveness etiquette becomes a cracked mirror.
I have to agree though that the flute make could have lost a future customer and that its good policy to be friendly and helpful, but perhaps he just had a bad day! it happens to us all. things go wrong, out of kilter and as a result we can be short tempered and terse. Unfortunately with some folk they make a habit of being bad tempered. those folk I can do without!!!
why not ask the flkute maker you decided to buy from? he has a financial interest in the answer. besudes did you look at the box wood flute I linked!? and the quote ;
Although box-wood was much used for flutes formerly, it has extremely few of the requisite qualities. It is not sufficiently compact, unless saturated with oil; and it is so altered in bulk and form by moisture and dryness, as to be more fit for a hygrometer than a musical instrument. <<Cornelius Ward in his The Flute Explained, 1844,
No comment just a quote!
Rama, the point of the thread is ‘did I breach etiquette’, not ‘is this flute maker a jerk’? If I hadn’t included his response, there’d have been no context to the question. You can try to be a nice guy and still make mistakes…
m31, I think what you actually meant to type was ‘yes’. You shouldn’t respond to a question with another question -
Well, I am glad we achieved some sort of discussion. Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one.
m.d.
dont worry about it! I do agree with that maker in what he said. After all, Im sure there is a wealth of information pertaining to your query on-line with a bit of patience and trawling through forums! Did you tell Terry McGee and Gilles Lehart that you werent planning on buying from them?
