BASH the whistlesmiths! BASH'EM!

Whistle
1

I expect this to be controversial, but I can live with that. This is not about recent threads but about threads that have started on this board and the previous two. Recently, John McHaffie has been the subject of intense scrutiny. Michael Burke has been the subject of scrutiny, so had Mike Copeland & Jim Rementer. Two boards ago, it was Ralph Cook getting what John is getting now. Ralph Cook has skipped town and dropped off the face of the earth as far as the whistle community is concerned. I think that is our loss, not his. Scrutiny is pretty much a constant. I will try to be non specific from hear on out, I just wanted to point out that members of this forum have had concerns and have voiced them. This forum is certainly a proper place to voice these concerns. I just have another point of view and I feel that this forum is the proper place to voice this opinion with the intent of rational discussion. My words will flow like stench from a privy, but please remember, I am focusing on a general pattern, not a specific event, post, or member. Please take all of my words with that grain of salt, and hopefully a few others.

We like whistles. We all like playing them. Some of us like collecting them. Some like cheap, mass-produced whistles. Some of us like expensive, hand crafted whistles. Some of us like all whistles. I have had a chance to talk with and visit with a few of the whistlesmiths, the makers of hand-crafted whistles. For the most part, these whistlesmiths all have DAY JOBS. They spend a small amount of time each day making whistles after coming home because they enjoy it. Some have machine shops at home; some have dedicated machine shops in rented location. Some of these machines cost as much as a hundreds of whistles. In a few hours a day, how fast can a whistlesmith make up this money. Something tells me a long time.

I feel as if I have been whistling for a short time (since 1998). I have. The number of whistle smiths has exploded. There is a community of 2600 something whistlers subscribing to Dale’s letters. Probably less than 400 members are on this board. About 60 are regular contributors. Certainly, there are untold thousands outside this community that play whistles. But, are there enough to keep all of these makers in business?

These makers must have had some fascination with the whistle to get started in this line of work that is lucrative by no means (for example, Mike Copeland does not drive a Lexus and live on Boat House Row with a fortune he made off of Loren’s back). Their thoughts must have been “this is cool,” “this is fun,” “I can make this better,” or “I’d like to do something different.” There must have been a voice of an engineer or an artist or an inventor speaking to them. A creative voice coupled with music has got to be a powerful one.

Coming from this perspective, every whistlesmith is not well equipped to run a business. Production estimates are bases on intuition, which is biased by good intentions which are not always in harmony with a broken or stolen machine, a sick son or daughter, a prolonged illness, or even a death in the family. . . You get the picture.

Now I expect great prompt service from places like Amazon.com or some other place with thousands of employees. When one has a personal problem, there are nine hundred and ninety-nine others to pick up the slack. These gentlemen (I use that term as no woman has yet stepped up to challenge the old boys system among the whistlesmiths) are probably sole proprietors with, at most, a single helper (with a DAY JOB). Each day of lost production by him is a complete day lost by the WHOLE company.

I am not saying that ignoring contacts is appropriate. I am not saying that prompt refunds are not deserved when they are in order. I am not saying that poor business management is to be applauded. I am saying that we play folk instruments. We do not offer a major economic sector that Alan Greenspan considers when changing the prime rate (yes, I know, a re-tread of Dale’s long standing joke). I am saying that sometimes folks may make honest bad decisions along somewhere along the line when trying to provide you a whistle. With persistent negative feed back is applied early, it may provide enough stress to turn a minor production problem into a reason to close the shop for good. In the cases of late, however, involving no refunds, bad production estimate upon bad production estimate, and absence of contact; negative feedback is certainly in order. In these situations there may be only three ways out.
(1)Brazil (although there is at least one of us there)
(2)Bankruptcy
(3)Honesty

I know there are holes throughout the ideas that I’ve written, but I’ve wanted to say this for weeks; so here it is. I genuinely expect a flame or two about this, but I guess it is deserved. It is a public forum . . .

Best wishes with no bad intentions,
Honest.
Mark Johnston.


[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2001-08-26 12:22 ]

2

Hello Mark

I did want to reply - as I often do when I feel that a generalisation is being used detrimentally - but not ‘flame’.

I haven’t met the huge numbers of whistle-makers that you suggest are in the world but I have met and dealt (professionally) with about 7 living and working in Ireland and the UK. Add to this at least 3 bodhran makers, 4 or 5 accordian and banjo makers, too. Some of these are amongst the finest craftsmen (and women in regard to Bodhran makers) around, although not necessarily all that well-known.

Many of those that I have met, have spent half their life as apprentices and honing their crafts as pipe-makers, organ builders, etc before going on to make whistles.

ALL of the ones that I have met do it full time, often investing huge sums of money in premises (sometimes at home, sometimes in craft villages). Occasionally, earnings are supplimented by playing music or taking other evening jobs - I know one apprentice to a well-known flute maker who has not been paid for the last 4 years, but expects to be there another 3 at least to ‘make the grade’).

I am as concerned as you about those that ‘vanish’ when the going gets tough and I personally tried to let one person know recently that he should ‘show his face’ to save his business - not that I deal with him, but for the sake of the good name of those that I do.

It’s maybe too easy for someone with a lathe and a little money to set up on their own as a whistle maker. But, in the UK, for example, not even Psychotherapists are regulated yet!
Those whistle makers I know who have spent their lives doing it, would be appalled to think how easily some of their ‘colleagues’ elewhere ‘come and go’.

Maybe buyers need to check out a makers credentials and ‘history’ before parting with money?

Best wishes

Steve Power

3

Mark,

I think that everything you have said is true, including the part about there being no excuse for bad business practice. I too, on a personal level, feel for those craftmen (and businesses) that have taken a beating, but more likely than not they brought it on themselves. Don’t shed too many tears.

Thirty years ago in my much younger days I had a photography business. I sold pictures regularly to various publications (mostly textbooks) and thought I was hot stuff. So I branched out into portrature and wedding photography (pays better); but I paid more attention to my “art” than my customers and paid a dear price for it. At the time it was painful to take responsibility and fess up… Sure I could take pictures people wanted to pay money for, but I was (and still am) a lousy businessman. I diserved to loose my business!

A couple of years later my father and I opened a music store (he had a great business head) and he taught me how precious a reputation is in business. He would insist that we bend WAY over backward to do what we could to see that everybody who came into our store left happy even if they didn’t spend a cent. For instance, I remember many times, with a customer standing there, him calling all over Chicago to find something we didn’t have and then sending the customer there. He used to say that it took ten happy customers to make up for one that leaves the store uphappy. He would remind me that first we were there to serve people and second to make money. If we served people well and truely, he always said, the money would take care of itself… it did.

For what its worth,

Clark

[ This Message was edited by: clark on 2001-08-26 07:39 ]

[ This Message was edited by: clark on 2001-08-26 07:41 ]

4

I agree completely with the original post!!
I’ve been learning the craft of making wooden whistles for better than a year, and I suspect that the learning will be a lifelong process. Since I do have a fulltime day job ( I am the official Podiatrist of C&F ), I have been doing this in what I laughingly refer to my spare time–an hour here, 2 hrs there. Family, work responsibilities, etc come first. The wood itself imposes restrictions: once the bore of the whistle has been driled, it must sit for a month or so to stabilize before proceeding further. Then, there are the unforseen delays such as cracks in a nearly finished whistle, machinery problems, difficulties in obtaining materials, etc.
Point is, this is not an exact, predictable commercial process, and I can see that promising a yet to be made whistle to a customer by a certain time would be a risky business. I think that honesty to a buyer is important, and once I get into making whistles for sale ( soon, I hope), I would like to think that I kept my potential buyers “in the loop” as to the progress of their instruments.
I own quite a few high end instruments including Thin Weasels ( Scultz flute too), Burke, Copeland Sindt, etc all of which I obtained from the makers, and I mustsay that ALL of them have been terrific to deal with. Never a problem-- several MINOR delays, but no big deal

5

In this case I have to agree with Clark. I too made the same mistakes he made in my own photography business and failed. I have always hated that stupid old maxim that the customer is always right, because quite frequently they aren’t. Nonetheless, I learned the hard way that Clarks father’s example of bending WAY over backwards is the ONLY way to survive as a businessman. If you don’t - Well all I can say is word of mouth will kill the small businessman. There is at least one maker we all know who will never receive an order from me.

The point has been made that there is a difference between a businessman and a craftsman. If someone makes whistles for the love of making them, he should call himself a craftsman or an artist, and maybe sell them at fairs, etc. I have no problem with that - if there is greater demand than supply, so be it - no promises have been made. But if he decides to go Public, and sell them to the Public, and makes claims and promises to the Public, he is answerable to that Public and has a whole different set of responsibilities and obligations now. Any businessman, whistle maker or not, will tell you that.

You may not understand this unless you have been in the position of explaining to customers why this hasn’t been done or that hasn’t been done, for whatever reason, and had them tell you, “I understand you have problems, but we had a contract and you failed to live up to that contract. I have no respect for you. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” It is humiliating.

I wonder if the people who think other people have been too hard on some of the makers would be so quick to defend a businesss not involved in making whistles if it showed the same disregad for customer service. I know there have been excuses offered, but excuses don’t cut it in the business world. These critiques may sound harsh, but if you were to run this story past the small businessman’s association, they would say “more likely than not they brought it on themselves. Don’t shed too many tears.”

Blaine

On 2001-08-26 07:35, clark wrote:
Mark,
no excuse for bad business practice. I too, on a personal level, feel for those craftmen (and businesses) that have taken a beating, but more likely than not they brought it on themselves. Don’t shed too many tears.

I was (and still am) a lousy businessman. I diserved to loose my business!

bend WAY over backward to do what we could to see that everybody who came into our store left happy even if they didn’t spend a cent. For instance, I remember many times, with a customer standing there, him calling all over Chicago to find something we didn’t have and then sending the customer there. He used to say that it took ten happy customers to make up for one that leaves the store uphappy. He would remind me that first we were there to serve people and second to make money. If we served people well and truely, he always said, the money would take care of itself… it did.

For what its worth,

Clark

[ This Message was edited by: clark on 2001-08-26 07:39 ]

[ This Message was edited by: clark on 2001-08-26 07:41 ]

6

All interesting points. In my jewelry business, I had been working with a caster who did production casting. When I didn’t order for a while (I had ordered a TON at first) they sent back my molds and weren’t very nice. So I switched to a different caster…this one likes small or large orders. Their work is great and their prices are reasonable. But the most amazing thing…they delivered two weeks before promised. I am thrilled and will recommend them to other people. I already have.

As Steve has stated, some of the whistle makers do make whistles full-time.


:slight_smile: Jessie

[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2001-08-26 12:21 ]

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Another really interesting and thoughtful thread. Here’s what I think: If you make whistles, and you want to sell some, you gotta decide what you can and can’t do in the way of meeting demand. Then you’ve got to be willing to make that clear to people up front. Take, for example, Pat O’Riordan. As everyone knows, he has a waiting list of 2 1/2 years. The point is: Everybody knows that and he tells people that when he accepts orders. Nobody has a problem with that. The problem that whistlesmiths get into is when they promise what they can’t deliver. That justifiably makes people mad. If you’ve got a full-time gig, you gotta be willing to say that you’re a part-time whistlesmith and you can’t deliver as quickly as you’d like.

Just my thing,

Dale

[ This Message was edited by: DaleWisely on 2001-08-26 16:45 ]

8

Some good points on this thread. My personal views as a self-employed person and as a purchaser of whistles: I will recommend and return to a whistlemaker who is friendly, prompt, honest, not over-priced and who produces an excellent, professional product.
I will not deal again with makers who do not respond to my e-mails/phone calls/ letters for weeks, or who promise delivery in under 6 months and then take over a year to deliver. I will also not recommend or return to makers who make me wait 2 years and phone me when I am out of town for a couple of days and so bump me down to the bottom of the 2 year waiting list again.
Good business practices will create more business and some of these makers don’t have the time for more business. So, unfortunately for us, they don’t have to worry about treating customers properly.
Sue

9

Lots of good points here. I agree largely with Dale here – that a whistle maker, heck, anyone doing anything, full time or part time, has to figure out what they can provide and how they can provide it, and be honest about it. No one worries about the wait with an Overton or an O’Riordan, as people have pointed out. Everyone knows that’s the way it is.

I understand that one person’s complaint might be bashing to another person. I don’t know how else we can operate though… if there’s never anything bad to be said about anything, then the point of reviewing things is sort of useless, unless there’s some unwritten law that “all things expressly discussed are good, anything not discussed isn’t”. I would hope that any maker or business-person would read what people had to say and try to improve based on it. I certainly don’t think anyone means to drive people under in any way, shape or form.

stimps

10

On 2001-08-26 02:38, Mark_J wrote:

for example, Mike Copeland does not drive a Lexus and live on Boat House Row with a fortune he made off of Loren’s back.

Mark,

Well what exactly DID Mike do with the fortune he make off my back? I’m dying to know :slight_smile:

Seriously though, It’s interesting to note that Copeland woodwinds recently added wording to their website indicating that they will no longer give estimates of delivery times. I think this was the right thing to do on their part.



Loren

11

Well this is a very interesting thread and since no whistlesmiths have jumped in on this one, I will. I like what Dale has to say, when one goes into business, one has to be a businessman. Admitted sometimes stuff comes up and shipments can’t go out as promised and the only real solution is to tell the truth. For me customer service is of critical importance, afterall a happy customer is what sells whistles. By the way I am a full time stepfather, future husband to my Darlin’ woman, working on a sauna for our back yard and full time whistlesmith. And when I’m not filling orders I’m working on refinements on my whistles.
Ronaldo

12

Hello,

I think many people are missing the point when it comes to ordering a whistle from someone. If you want the best, then just put up with it. If a whistlesmith can’t give you the exact time of delivery, then you’ll just have to forgive him. A top quality whistle is not easy to make, and way too many whistles have bad intonation. There are really only a handful of whistlesmiths who make a top quality instrument, and I believe they are the ones in the driver’s seat. If someone doesn’t like a whistlesmith’s business techniques, he doesn’t have to order from him. But where does that leave him? He is still out a whistle. Order from another, and the whistle is not the same. That’s why many professional whistlers choose whistles from only certain makers. They know who makes the best. And when those whistlesmiths quit making them for us, then we will no longer be playing the best whistles. Only the pros will have them.

JP

[ This Message was edited by: John Palmer on 2001-08-27 00:24 ]

13

If you want the
best, then just put with it. If a
whistlesmith can’t give you the exact
time of delivery, then you’ll just have to
forgive him.

I dont believe this is the way business should be done. If I’m paying top $ for any product then I expect service and at the very least communication if the promised and expected service is not forthcoming.

I appreciate that these guys make the best products and that there are unexpected and unforeseen circumstances that can occur -as in any business. But don’t put them on any pedistal - if they are Businessmen then they are Businessmen, period. If you can’t satnd the heat etc…

With todays technology there is no excuse for lack of communication or not keeping customers informed…no excuse!!! I don’t care how busy you are, what problems you have etc. if you are in business then you are in business.

Maybe they can’t give exact times of delivery but then they should state that up-front. Like Copelands, I’m sure that it would save a lot of grief, and bad publicity!

Cheers:-)
Gerry

[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-08-26 22:40 ]

14

On 2001-08-26 18:13, Loren wrote:
…Copeland woodwinds recently added wording to their website indicating that they will no longer give estimates of delivery times.

I just ordered a Copeland…and rather than getting an estimate, I’m quite happy with thier current system (a list of what order numbers go out, and when), so you can anticipate how far down you are on the list, without having to get continual personal feedback from Copeland Woodwinds. I think it’s the perfect compromise. It’s probably the reason that they’re the only whistles I’ve purposely put myself on a long waiting list for..(of course, I’ve put myself on a few other long lists, by not by design!)

Greg

15

Thanks for playing. I appreciate the thoughfullness and civility in this post.

I don’t think I was ever “shedding a tear”

I think what prompted me to write initially were some posts that blasted a whistlesmith for not responding to e-mail in 6 days or something like that. Most vacations and some funerals last that long.

Certainly, I appreciate constructive negative feedback on things from “bad C natural intonation” to “that son-of-a-gun took my money and skipped town.”

The one thing I’ve distilled as the only unanimous opinion is “Honesty is not the best policy, it is the ONLY policy.” This makes sense.

Cheers all.
MJ

16

We hear ya! Some really good food for thought.

Respectfully,
Jim Rementer

PS Mike Copeland doesn’t even drive anymore, but a Lexus would be cool!

17

Boy, this topic seems so familiar! In addition to whistle, which I’ve been playing now for a whole week, I play Chapman Stick. These are also hand-crafted instruments, made by Chapman Enterprises, for which there is usually a wait when you order one. They try to estimate the delivery date, but it can be very difficult. The point often made in discussions of this sort on the Stick email groups is that this is not mass-production. It is painstaking craftsmanship (at least it is for Chapman Sticks and I assume it is similar for the high end whistles); it’s a process that relies on perfectionism, and it’s more of an art than a science. And the more time they have to spend on communication/business, the less they have to spend on the instruments. In this day and age, with everything mass-produced, we’re not used to dealing with artisans. But I suggest patience; in the case of a new Chapman Stick, it’s well worth it, and I assume it will be when/if I ever purchase a high-end whistle.

Joe

18

Just to let everyone know that tardiness isn’t limited to musical instruments, I ordered a pair of bowls from a potter in Maine in October 2000. He said they would ship for Christmas. In March he sent a letter saying they’d be a little late, they’d be out in June.

Guess what came in the mail today.

19

Irregular bowl movements can be frustrating.

20

Gee, Rich, you sure can dish it out!