Recently spotted another post by someone who bought a whistle from the very upper end price bracket and found himself with a whistle with a terribly flat bottom D (which I took from his own description of the problem).
It’s not a unique occurrence the same make of whistle has attracted quite a few of similar comments over time and so have other ones. Invariably a few posters come back to say : ‘just send it back to your man, he’s great to work with and he’ll fix the problem for you. He will stand over his product’.
This has always puzzled me deeply. I know if on the board you say ‘Generation’ the multitudes will readily jump in to parrot ‘Quality control problems’, so why does it never seem to occur to people that when you pay a fair amount of money to a maker of not mass produced instruments you should be able to expect an instrument that plays well and is in tune? I mean, why is it great customer service if you have to go through the hassle of going to the post-office send stuff half and whole continents away, be without the instrument you bought for weeks before you get it back in a condition it should have been in in the first place?
Disclaimer, this is not aimed at any maker in particular, it’s a general query, one that has been puzzling me for years now.
I think that’s a problem in quite a few cases (not in all though), both with regards to mass produced and designer whistles. But that’s not really the issue at stake. I am just utterly curious why it’s not just OK but why it is even seen as a sign of great service if a maker sends out a flawed instrument and, if customer complains, takes it back to replace or fix it. A
I don’t have any axes to grind on this topic other than not owning a high end whistle or flute. I always wonder how many whistles and flutes and just about anything else are bought by or for someone and then never really used. How many people own high end whistles and flutes that are not in tune and they don’t even know it but they look lovely on their library shelves?
I got a pretty old beat up concertina for Christmas that was just going to become another knick-knack by the folks who gave it to me.
Absolutely! Everything SHOULD be perfect. The world SHOULD be a perfect place. There SHOULD be no war.
Every high end whistle SHOULD be perfect. After all, lots of cash was spent. It was made by a human maker and SHOULD be perfect. If the human maker erred, he SHOULD throw himself on a sword.
Ahh, the Land of Should", I haven’t visited this land since I was a teenager.
I don’t think anybody is expecting perfection from a high end whistle, but come on, it only takes a minute or two to check a whistle against a tuner.
There’s no excuse for a high end maker to ship a whistle without first giving it a brief test play.
And at the risk or derailing this thread, it’s also unacceptable for a high end whistle to have finger holes that wander all over the tube.
Any shop rat should be able to make a simple jig to hold a tube steady and guide it in a straight line.
Well, I think we can all agree, it’s better customer service when a maker works with you, than if he just said “here it is and that’s that.”
As long as a maker works with his clients to make them as satisfied as possible with their purchase, I really don’t see any reason for concern.
In fact, it’s pretty phenomenal.
To compare, go buy a high-end orchestral flute, and then tell the maker that you’d really prefer the F-sharps to be a bit flatter, or the third register a little sweeter, and see what they tell you.
Part of this is psychology. With the high end whistle
that’s not working, there’s a human being you talk
to, one who expresses interest, concern and regret
and promises to fix the thing, then does. One does
tend to like the person, consequently.
Nobody
has these exchanges with the (very) cheapie
makers. You either try to return it or, more
likely, are stuck with it. If one had the same
experience I reckon one would like the makers of cheapies
better, although perhaps not, as the percentage of bad
whistles is much higher.
This is not about the occasional slip up but I am talking about things no maker could get away with if the whistle would have been sold over the counter, with the buyer taking a test-drive before buying.
This is not about finger pointing, it’s about the psychology that makes people think it’s great and exceptional if a maker takes back a faulty item. ‘He’d better’ is what I think but really he should never (within reason) have put the customer in the position where things needed to be returned in the first place.
[edited to remove reply to Jim’s ‘higher percentage of duds’ line of reasoning that had too great a potential for thread drift. And then again to add this explanation]
People should better think twice before being the judge of what other people think. Also in this thread two things are mixed up: the mistakes of the maker and that what a person thinks about the service of repairing/replacing it. If people didn’t think the service was exceptional, was this an issue? Are those people to blame then? This IS psychology, but not used well here.
I’d agree wholeheartedly with Peter’s impression that it’s odd that people will complain about the quality of low-cost whistles yet rave about “customer service” when a high-cost maker sells them a defective whistle and then agrees to fix it.
As a beginner with ‘high end’ whistles (2 of them), I may well fit the description of being a flawed player and not having a flawed whistle. I really don’t mind being called flawed, as I plan on being very pleased when I begin to approach mediocrity in the whistle.
Anyway, my personal view is that I agree with the phrase “a bad workman blames his tools.” This is the reason why I chose a couple of higher end whistles. That and the fact that I can afford them. I’ll never be able to afford a high end car (not that I really want one, but I’d like to have the money to buy one), but I can afford the higher end whistles - my idea of luxury. My second reason is that with a high-end whistle, I psychologically feel that any whistling shortcomings will be my fault and not my whistle’s fault.
This gives me comfort in the knowledge that if I want to sound better, then it is up to me to improve.
I agree with Peter’s first posting on this and in my case I expect that my high-end whistles were properly quality-controlled and that my technique may simply have led to my whistle misconceptions.
I really want to try to keep this away from the mass produced-craftman made, flawed player or specific cases scenarios.
When ordering an instrument from an established maker I think we can have reasonable expectations with regard to quality, in other words we should not expect anything untoward with respect to manufacture and tuning etc. Personally I would never send back anything I order because I don’t like the sound of it, in other words because of taste issues. I really think that is something you need to sort out before ordering and if you order blind you take the risk and shouldn’t hassle the maker about it.
So, let’s try get to this (Jim is just about the only one who really tried to focus on the issue) why put a maker on a pedestal if he offers to fix a defect like bad tuning while in the process he is putting you through the hassle of sending stuff back, leaving you without your whistle in the meantime?
Ofcourse I know we all like to think of makers as nice, dedicated and reasonable people, even in the unfortunate cases where things get sent out that maybe shouldn’t have.
Well, in general, making of a whistle is not that short process, in area of hand-made whistles, which I prefer…and if a maker says he spends hours working with it, and I get something obviously flawed, so he didn´t even bother to try the whistle well, it seems weird.
When someone sells me crap, and he says, that if I want, I can send it back, so he repairs it…what? When I buy a ferrari, I don´t want a car without an engine, which will be graciously installed inside, if I send it back…
I don´t call the thing you describe as “good customer service”, but “at least he´s not a complete crook”.
not trying to derail alert<<
When someone buys a Generation, for few bucks, it´s fine that some are good, some are bad. But in means of “high end” whistles, I expect, at least, a whistle with very good->perfect tuning and no material flaws. Whether I like the particular sound or not is my problem, not the makers (unless we agreed on custom sound).
'This is not about the occasional slip up but I am talking about things no maker could get away with if the whistle would have been sold over the counter, with the buyer taking a test-drive before buying. ’
I’ve owned a number of high-end whistles and only once
seen something like this. The slide on the two-piece whistle
(from a maker known for his craftsmanship) didn’t hold
the headjoint, it was way too loose. I sent it to him
and he fixed it and sent it back to me the same day.
I’ve owned a number of whistles from this fellow,
all but this one beautifully made, and this one has
been perfect ever since. I figure it was an apprentice
in his shop or anyway a mistake was made in
releasing it on a busy day. No blame. This
was Chris Abell.
I once sent back a low D whistle to a top maker
because the Csharp was too flat. He worked on it
for a couple of weeks and everytime he tried
to adjust it something else went out of tune.
So he sent me a new one. Again no blame.
A Flat C sharp could slip through. I’ve owned
several whistles from this fellow and they
were fine.
So I’m not personally aware of whistles being sent to customers
that no one would buy over the counter, except
for the Abell I mentioned above.
If a maker is sending out a fair number of defective
whistles, s/he has problems.
I certainly wouldn’t put such a person on a pedestal.
If such a maker exists and is being put on a pedestal,
suggest you ask the people who put him there
why they do it. I think we don’t know the
answer to your question.
I don’t necessarily agree with you on this and I don’t think that many of the high end makers would. It is already difficult enough finding stores that carry the cheapest of whistles, without having to find a place to try out the high-end ones. If this were the case than makers such as Burke and Sindt would likely be quite unsuccessful. Another industry with high end is home audio. The high end stores will allow you to demo gear at home. When I recently needed a new CD player, I would not have spent $900 on a player if I could not have tested it at home alongside cheaper units. In this case, the dealers and manufacturers expect home demonstrations.
This would be like a whistle maker selling whistles that he or she would not accept for themselves, which would be very poor practise - IMO. In this case, it could be a question of quality-control and sufficient testing of instruments prior to mailing out. Most new items some with some form of manufacturer’s guarantee, so why shouldn’t high end whistles? They do - the ability to send them back.
Maybe Peter’s question should be asking how often high end whistles have to be returned to particular manufacturers. If a high end whistle maker has one whistle returned per 1000 good whistles, this would be much better than the maker who has one “dud” per 10 whistles.
Are some “high end” makers pedaling cr*p? I would have thought that all such makers are highly reputable or maybe I am naive.
I understand Peter’s point, because I also find myself being overly appreciative when I get just what I should and no more, in various types of products and services. That said, regarding whistles, I can only go by experience. I’ve had more problems with high end whistles than with cheapies, although mostly not recently. I’m not talking about playing characteristics, I’m referring to cracked wood, loose ferrules, badly fitted tuning slides, and voicing that is so poorly done that playing is near impossible in one of the octaves (I’m not talking about blowing notes into tune or getting used to breath requirements or even quirky breath control requirements). And Peter is right - it’s a big pain in the ass to have to pack it back up and ship and insure it and be without the use of something you’ve already paid for.
That said, I think that once there is a negative occurrence, it’s important how the maker responds - some can make it worse or not take pains to make the buyer happy after something occurs that is the maker’s fault.
Wood is always riskier than metals and plastics and can crack or have hairline cracks that easily go undetected until you get it. Here’s where, e.g., the heart and intent of the maker can come into play. Glenn Schultz acknowledged that hey sometimes wood cracks; so he started sending me bunches of whistles at a time to mess with for as long as I wanted until I picked out what I wanted and made sure there were no cracks. No, I did not take advantage and hold them for ages, I just played them for a short while and picked the one I wanted - how many makers will do that?
Never had a problem with any Abell, O’Riordan, Burke or Sindt. I have had a problem with two Copelands over a very long period of time - both were unplayable - one was so bad that it got tossed by Michael and a new one made and sent out. The other was re-voiced and that process was not fun, because it took so long to get it back. So yes, there are differences in the way people stand behind their products, and not because they’re good or bad people, usually more because of personality.
