I think some of what’s happening here is, making whistles isn’t something you can study in school or learn from books and then if there’s something you’re not sure about, just look up the answer.
Though there are a few who’ve been through an apprenticeship of one kind or another (Paul Busman, with Glenn Schulz as mentor, Chris Abell I believe was trained as a winds instrument maker, Colin Goldie with Bernard Overton, etc.), making whistles is not well charted territory, and there’s no clear path to expertise. Every whistle maker is something of a pioneer. It takes a certain amount of courage to open shop and offer one’s handiwork to the public.
Or are we all missing the point? Is Peter saying, again, that a ‘designer’ whistle is an indulgence, and not required by an accomplished player?
Personally, I keep trying to like my Gens better. But what keeps happening is I keep wondering how good my role-models would have sounded with a better whistle.
Agreed, craftsmen should stand by their products. The whistle makers I know do.
Or are we all missing the point? Is Peter saying, again, that a ‘designer’ whistle is an indulgence, and not required by an accomplished player?
No I am not.
Phil mentioned Copeland, I think I am safe mentioning him here as an example because he’s out of business, and there have been quite numerous mentions of problematic whistles made by him in the past but there have been several other makers who have attracted at one time or another mention of dodgy features in their whistles (use search), the standard reaction to this has always been the one I mention: ‘ah, sure isn’t he great, he fix/revoice/retune/replace it’.
I rarely buy whistles untried, out of the four 'craftman-style ’ makers I have dealt with two sent me a whistle I would not have bought had I tried it. No ‘just send it back if it’s a problem for you’ will make me feel everything is dandy. Mind you both makers were decent and nice guys but some things just won’t fly
I mean, I have a whistle sitting on the table here with a bottom note between twenty and thirty cents flat. It plays like a piper who fails to hit hard bottom D each and every time, something you can get away with some of the time if you’re not too fussy but you certainly don’t want to end on the note. Did the maker think I wouldn’t notice? Didn’t he notice himself? Are all his whistles like that? What’s the story? It’s great for playing Tom Billy’s jigs but I like to play tunes in D as well some of the time and for that it’s not quite suited.
So why does the forum in general think all’s well if things go pear-shaped, what’s at work there?. That I want to know. Well, maybe I just want you to think about it.
OK, I understand your point. The only reason I can offer up is that we support and encourage those with the courage to strike out on the whistle-making path. We feel kinship, and maybe cut them some slack occasionally. And I say occasionally, because I really don’t think inferior whistles coming from good makers are a common occurrance.
Well, we shouldn’t. Why do we" Because it’s easy to rail against the corporation and cut the little guy some slack. Is it right? No, but the small craftsman does more than make whistles. He also plays into the romantic notion of the olde days and artisanship and striving against the man. They are also people with faces and names and most people end to be more polite to people they can see and touch than they are to corporate entities. Not to mention the momentum the belief system this community holds regarding high end whistles vs. ‘cheapies’ tends to sway comments to the positive. Wait, I just mentioned it.
Well, in a world where customer support is outsourced, you can’t get a correct order at the drive-through, and there’s just a general lack of giving a crap everywhere you turn, maybe people are just grateful of a maker willing to take care of a problem. So what should ideally be expected everywhere actually looks like service that goes above and beyond.
That’s a fair notion.
A friend of mine makes the very top range of Uilleann pipes and I used to do the test driving/playing in before they were let go. I spent a lot of time around the workshop. Some customers can be troublesome, ignorant and a pain in the neck and it’s always the maker who’s to blame. So I don’t envy makers who have to deal with that side of it all the time. In fact I have known several pipe-makers who gave up because of the customer hassle, I imagine it’s not a lot different for whistle makers.
On the other hand, if I receive a whistle that plays out of tune I can feel it may be a slip but it may also make you feel uneasy about the regard the maker has for his customers, the ‘did he really think I wouldn’t notice’, ‘what did he take me for, a moron?’ that sort of feeling. Because as Gary said above, it doesn’t take much to give a whistle a run before it goes and maybe run it by a tuner.
I think being critical in a realistic way, giving feedback without necessarily tearing down or hassling the maker is a good way forward. It will certainly help keep a maker on his toes, more so than blathering on on the forums he makes ‘perfect whistles’ when he doesn’t.
Indeed. And the same could be said regarding makers of instruments who consistently take people’s money and then often don’t ship the instruments in anything that could even be remotely considered a timely fashion, if ever, and yet you yourself go on supporting at least of of these publicly, which has always puzzled me deeply…
To try to stay with the original point, I think the only real question here is whether it’s understandable and acceptable that an instrument maker occasionally sends out an instrument that a player would find flawed.
But, if someone’s going to slip up occasionally and sell a flawed instruments, there are basically two responses that I’ve encountered. 1) I’m sorry about that, and I’ll make it right or 2) there’s nothing wrong with that instrument; what’s wrong with you?
All that said, if a maker routinely sends out problem instruments, even a willingness to make it right doesn’t exactly recommend the maker.
I just did. All I can say is that I only know of what you’re suggesting by hearsay, and then mainly from yourself. I have a very different experience with that flutemaker and so do a number of other people who took delivery of their flutes since I did.
Yes, sadly most people are talking about these issues privately, rather than openly on the forum, since anything negative said about any maker will tend to get the poster dogpiled by the those who believe posts about makers should all be positive.
Well the flute-forum is open to you if you feel the need to address the issue, as I said my experience with that particular flutemaker is very positive, he was courteous, prompt in his communications and spot on with the delivery. I have no negative experiences, nor do any of the people who I know that got a flute off him. The only knowledges of ‘issues’ I have is by hearsay and that mainly from yourself and experiences there are not your own first hand ones either.
I would just like to say this on the subject of craftsman making errors. It happens. As a craftsman myself ( but not in the area of instrument manufacture ) I know only too well that occassionally, for a myriad different reasons. I do screw up and put out product that is less than acceptable. I do not always recognise the mistake before it becomes too late to correct. This is as true of myself as it is of any other craftsman. Even great instrument makers are fallible. In the event that a customer is unhappy with my work all I can do is correct the error to the best of my ability and try to salvage whatever goodwill that remains. I am sure the same is true for whistle makers. Ultimately shoddy workmanship is only a problem if it is the rule not the exception - and of course for the person unlucky enough to be the recipient.
I genuinely empathise with the person who buys a substandard instrument. It is frustrating and demoralising. I don’t believe a craftsman should in some way be put on a pedestal for correcting his/her mistakes, but at least, as in this case, an honest craftsman will always bend over backwards to rectify the original problem.
I recently purchased an Irish flute which has turned out to be a major headache and almost entirely a waste of money. I rushed impulsively into buying something without doing adequate research and which I cannot return. Believe me I know how it feels but perhaps be glad that eventually you will get what you paid for.
I wish you the best.
I have purchased several “high” end whistles over the last several years and can honestly say that I’ve not experienced any problems. They have included Busman’s, Copelands, Shultz’, Burkes and Humphrey’s to name a few. I currently have a Rose on order and plan on getting an Abell or two in the future.
But I wouldn’t purchase any whistle, high end or otherwise if the maker had a reputation for shoddy workmanship, or if I had heard that their whistles often had to be returned for “adjustments.” One of the main reasons I’m willing to purchase a whistle without playing it first is the reputation of the craftsman who made it. And his or her reputation stands or falls; IMO, on the quality of the whistle at delivery.
That’s also the reason I won’t any longer purchase a Generation without playing it first. Actually, I don’t even look for them anymore as I have better things to do with my time than work through a box of whistles trying to find the one that’s acceptable. But then I’m sure that I lay aside many the better players would find outstanding.
I suppose there’s a tendency among many of us to keep it to ourselves when we purchase an expensive whistle and it doesn’t “measure up.” Maybe its out of respect for the craftsman and all the other whistlers who have enjoyed and praised their work. But I don’t see a broad acceptance of shoddy workmanship here on this board.
Nor did I suggest there was but as you confirm, there seems to be a quiet acceptance of slip ups and praise gets heaped on if the maker in question will do what you’d expect him to do and put his glitches right.
On the other hand, and you had a go there yourself, the board can’t wait for the opportunity to have a go at mass produced whistles.
Which is always good for a bit of banter, up to a point. As I said on another thread a few days ago, we know what the best players play don’t we?
But let’s keep that out of the present discussion, we both had our moment on that subject now.
Anyhow, politeness and affinity, as expected, seem to emerge as the main reasons for not giving too much weight to maker’s faults.
The next question that arises would be: Do you think that’s an overall good thing? Somewhere earlier I already gave my opinion on this, I don’t think a reasonable critical look at things is out of place and should help keep makers on their toes, I am not buying whistles to put up on the mantle-piece and I expect them up for the job when I get them.
I guess I just have one question. If I buy a Dixi fife and find that it is a bit out of tune, has plastic bits that needs to be cleaned off, etc, Do I have any recourse ? Other than slagging McChud’s work here what could I do? I guess it might depend on the dealer, but would returning a used whistle even be an option in many of the places? Or would I be stuck trying to open up the tone holes and clean out the bits of junk? I received an Oak from my wife about a year ago (plays just fine) but if I did have a problem with it, is it the dealer or the maker that takes the loss? If I lose the box, break the seal, and slobber on the thing, am I stuck with it? If it has a manufacturer error, is it the US 30 Limited warranty filled with loopholes that I am dealing with, or the manufacturer?
I don’t really know and that was more than one question. Heck I don’t even know if I am on topic. Perhaps it is a bit of piece of mind that helps demand a premium?
The only dog I have in the fight is that I have tried 2 to 3 metal fifes, mass produced, that were unplayable. Whistles are much better in this regard, but purchase decisions are not made in a vacuum. I am much more forgiving of problems that can be fixed than ones that cannot be.
Yeah, I think that’s the main problem with this board. You’ll get flamed big time if you dare criticize a maker, right or wrong. It’s the same with music shop owners and players/musicians. Sadly, this means that you can’t really trust reviews and what you read on the board about a specific whistle model.
I think this is also at the heart of Peter’s question. Since we won’t accept criticism, the only thing you’ll know about a bad maker with good service here is that he’s got good service. This is the ‘unspoken rule’, since criticizing a maker is a big taboo.
I have sometimes wondered how many whistle makers the market has room for. My conclusion is, as many as can produce an acceptable instrument, especially as pertains to wooden whistles. If not an unlimited number, then at least more than are in the market now. A craftsman can only make so many whistles in a month, and it appears to me, there is demand for more whistles than the present stable of makers can produce.
I’ve been extremely gratified by the overall civility and good nature of the vast majority of people I’ve done business with in the whistle world. Certainly, I’ve had to take care of a few who’ve been unhappy for one reason or another, but I’ve found them to be reasonable to work with for the most part. This is one of the things that has inspired me to devote myself full time to this business.
In my other business, the story was completely different. Although there were things I enjoyed, there were so many people who were often overly demanding, not to mention unreasonable, surly, dishonest, I was very pleased when I realized I wouldn’t have to deal with them any more.
My point is, it looks as though there’s room for more people making whistles. I think one of the things that attracts people to this work is the fact that the community as a whole is a very pleasant one to engage. I don’t think this is a business where there is great income potential for most who pursue it, so I would say it serves the whistling public to approach the makers pretty much as they are doing.
I don’t see a problem with makers dumping a lot of shoddy work on the public. What I see is a cottage industry (a very small one) with some occasional, mostly minor glitches due either to the maker working through the nuances of the craft or because of the individual foibles and aptitudes of the maker and how he runs his shop.
As I said, I think the whistling community’s got it about right. And an occasional thread like this one is an important part of the balance, too.
